$200 NLHE Full Ring: Butchered QQ hand

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baudib1

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Pretty sure I misplayed this at least once.

UTG makes it $10 and has $195
2 calls
SB makes it $35 and has $650ish
I have :qh4: :qs4: and I have everyone covered and make it $80.
UTG jams for $195
2 folds
SB tanks, and flat calls.
Hero???????? pot is $490ish.

UTG is bad, loose, passive
SB is a solid TAG
 
micromachine

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Not sure how you butchered at least once, all you did so far was 4bet.

Gotta be shove or fold imo, think I would fold, looks like one of them has AA or KK and I wouldn't want to be shoving to flip with SB's 325bb stack if he has AK either.
 
duggs

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you always have live reads, was tis really early in a session or did they both just sit down or something?

ummm do you have any assumptions about tags reshoving range? is he likely to call here with AA/KK/QQ/AK or is he more likely to shove them, id assume he is more likely to shove AK since us flatting and him whiffing would be hell. so if thats so then v even JJ+ its a fold especially given the uncapped range of UTG. pretty happy 4b/f here
 
Yoshimiii

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I don't play live and also what does "Tank" mean? Anyway as the Sb flat calls UTG's shove I would fold. It looks more like A/A, K/K that wants you to shove as well when he flat calls rather than A/K.
 
micromachine

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Tank = think, for quite a long time
 
Deco

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Pretty sick spot assuming we have the deep tag covered. Looks like a spot for pokerstove (on my mac so I can't atm). Seems a fair assumption to say SBs range is {QQ+, AK} right?

I think this is going to be a call, perhaps a shove, kinda worried AK/QQ can find a fold if we shove as our line is crazy strong to cold 4bet then 6bet deep multiway in to two players but maybe I'm just being paranoid.

If both players ranges were {AK, QQ+} we'd have around 40%, strangely enough I suspect widening UTGs range will reduce our equity as QQ vs {AK,QQ+} x2 is mostly amazing for us because QQ vs AK vs AK greatly inflates our equity.
 
Deco

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One of those spots where SBs tank would be great to pick up tells. Fake tanking AA is so standard here.
If SB can fold AK or QQ here this is a fold but given UTGs fishiness and live regs inability to fold hands I think it's pretty unlikely.

I'd fold AK in this spot.
 
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Generally speaking live players dont 5 bet jam and cold call 5 bets with JJ or AK.

Based on my limited experience at 1/2 live id really hate it but I fold here.
 
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baudib1

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UTG more or less sigh-jammed. SB is fairly solid, isn't nitty but doesn't really get out of line.
 
Jillychemung

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I'd not be worried about UTG in the least, play QQ here against him every time. Now SB, it would come down to whether I think he would flat AA in this spot to try and induce a shove from my very obvious big hand. If I thought SB was reacting to the way UTG jammed and would not flat AA here then I'd jam. If I had any doubt at all about SB I'd have to sigh-fold.
 
Jillychemung

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With the UTG sigh-shove, UTG has so many more hands other than AA/KK that I'd be very comfortable with QQ here. If I can't put SB on AA then I want to try to get SB to fold or build a side pot.
 
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baudib1

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Jilly, what hands would you flat in SB given action?
 
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ScottishMatt

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I think I fold here. Can't see a solid player flatting AK here, and he probably doesn't want to flat JJ OOP vs you. I reckon he either folds or ships AK/QQ. Him flat calling a 5-bet shove is so nutty it is unreal.

I suppose it comes down whether you feel it is more likely the reg is going into the tank and coming to the wrong conclusion, as opposed to doing it as an act. By flatting he opens you up to making mistakes vs his nuts. I don't think a reg tanks in order to make a mistake more than he does to draw you into making mistakes.
 
Jillychemung

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Jilly, what hands would you flat in SB given action?

Assuming I was going to be playing a lot of poker against you in the future, as the SB with these stack sizes, I'd be flatting AT+, TT+ against you. I want to play more post flop poker against you and give you chances to make mistakes.

You would know that I would be 3-betting this bad UTG very wide to try and steal UTG's money from you, so your 4-bet is not unexpected with a large part of your range also your 4-bet would diminish AA/KK from that range. With AA/KK you'd be more inclined to flat here to try and induce a shove from UTG.
 
XXPXXP

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what do u put on for sb flats? AA KK only?
then I would fold...

if only 2 outs I would fold, cos the expressed odds is way way not enough! you need to buy a Q showing on flop at least..

sb would just shove any flop....seems like that...
 
frozensprx

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Why do players insist on going all in pre with queens? It doesn't make any sense because the very best scenario is you are against jj but that will be very rare, and in all other cases you are either huge underdog or a tiny favorite. The best way to play it is to keep villain's jj, tt, missed AK and other hands in the pot by not spazzing out preflop, that way you can maximize the amount you get from the villain's range, because when you make those spazz 4bets it just turns your hand face up and allows villain to fold every single hand that you are ahead of and only continue with better hands.
 
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baudib1

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Why do players insist on going all in pre with queens? It doesn't make any sense because the very best scenario is you are against jj but that will be very rare, and in all other cases you are either huge underdog or a tiny favorite. The best way to play it is to keep villain's jj, tt, missed AK and other hands in the pot by not spazzing out preflop, that way you can maximize the amount you get from the villain's range, because when you make those spazz 4bets it just turns your hand face up and allows villain to fold every single hand that you are ahead of and only continue with better hands.

1. QQ has ~40% equity vs. a range of KK+/AK, which is often plenty if there's tons of dead money already in the pot.
2. There are plenty of games that you haven't played in where people stack far wider, or even 4-bet/5-bet bluff.
 
frozensprx

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1. QQ has ~40% equity vs. a range of KK+/AK, which is often plenty if there's tons of dead money already in the pot.
2. There are plenty of games that you haven't played in where people stack far wider, or even 4-bet/5-bet bluff.
Well obviously occasionally someone will be on tilt and stack some smaller pp or even be trying to balance their 3/4bet range by including bluffs...but I doubt such thinking is taking place at the stakes you are playing, and even if it is, people typically don't choose to 3bet bluff when OOP and facing a UTG open...just saying. And lastly, even if they are doing this as a bluff, as i said before, you are just going to fold out all their bluffs with your reraise. I never siad you wou8ldn't be ahead sometimes here, my only point is that the way you played the hand basically always folds out all worse hands. Just because some dork showed you 88 this time doesn't mean it was the best play.
 
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baudib1

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My response had nothing to do with this hand but rather what seemed to be a general tone of "why do people stack QQ pre ever." Stacking QQ pre is going to be super standard at almost any stakes above 10NL against all but the super nittiest of nits.
 
frozensprx

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My response had nothing to do with this hand but rather what seemed to be a general tone of "why do people stack QQ pre ever." Stacking QQ pre is going to be super standard at almost any stakes above 10NL against all but the super nittiest of nits.

Why would it be standard at stakes above 10nl? Did you mean below 10nl? Can someone else please give their opinion on this? Because it seems me and Baudib disagree on this. It seems foolish to think that as you move up stakes and players get better you are default stacking the 3rd best starting hand.......as you are just coolering yourself more frequently while the other better players can flat or do other plays that allows them to lose less the times they are behind and win the most when they are ahead. From what I have read from books and some minor coaching I have received it seems apparent that automatically shoving QQ preflop isn't a very winning or even standard play, and you could greatly increase your profits and minimize losses with the hand by playing it in other ways. And I just looked at my DB and saw I have a big profit with QQ and only went allin pre like 2 times vs a fish at 50nl.
 
Yoshimiii

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I have a big profit with Q/Q and I get it in PF all the time if I can... (except nits), also the higher the stakes you go, the more standard Q/Q and A/K are to gii pf due to the aggressive light 3/4 betting ( I imagine, never actually gone high ). Usually when you are OOP with QQ and you get 3 bet, the best line is just to 4 bet and gii rather than play OOP when an overcard comes on flop. If you are IP with Q/Q, you can very well just flat call profitably.
 
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Very curious-what did the BB have?
 
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