$200 NLHE Full Ring: Big Crazy Jam

Jdjakubisin

Jdjakubisin

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How often do you fold assuming someone is going to get their draw, if ever? Is that ever how you get value? Assuming pot odds for an open ended straight and flush draw leave the guy with 8 outs for a straight and 9 outs for a flush, we have 17 outs leaving him with less than 20% chance. Good odds?
Live casino hand I'm not entirely disappointed in. Blinds are $1/$3.

Same group playing now about 90 minutes.


I am in UTG+1, hitting raises & missing on calls to be folded post flop. After a few good bluffs and a solid 2BB button straddle followed by a 3-bet all-in with AQ, I was stacked right above my original $100 buyin.

UTG- I can only say conservative play.

BB- rebuyer complaining "dealer is pitching a no-hitter," and he's been losing big calls with middle pair. He's stacked around $250 from a recent rebuy of $300.


UTG- Calls BB
Hero- Raises to $10 with KhKc
folds around
BB- calls $10 (3.33BB)
UTG- Calls

Flop; 2s 10d 4s

BB- Check
UTG- Check
Hero- Raise to $15
BB- Calls
UTG- Fold

Turn; (2s10d4s) 5c

BB- Check
Hero- Raise $15
BB-Re-raise to $45
Hero- Contemplative, but confident in my read that this guy doesn't have it yet, I re-raise all-in (about $30 in addition to the $30 re-raise) to pressure him out of it.
BB- After some thinking out loud about all the hands it appears I'm not afraid of, he hesitantly calls.

River; (2s10d4s5c) As
 
Edu1

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who won this hand?
BB shows AdQs?
 
Jdjakubisin

Jdjakubisin

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who won this hand?
BB shows AdQs?


It was the BB. The dealer lets the river come out before both show, but he eventually showed a Ks3s.

It was obvious to me from watching him play previous hands he did not have trips or two pair or anything. He saw the straight & flush texture and tried to profit from it. I will see the guy again and try to play it the same way.
 
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fundiver199

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Line wise I think, you played this fine, but your bet sizing need some work. Preflop you only raised a little more than 3BB, and this is not enough, when someone have limped into the pot. In a soft live game, I would go to at least 15$ here or 5BB. As played you saw the flop 3-ways with 30 in the pot and 90 left behind.

You are playing short stacked poker here, and honestly I would look to make this a 2 street game. It makes it really expensive to draw and takes away some possibly awkward spots on the river. If you bet 25 on the flop, and someone call, there is 80 in the pot and 65 left behind on the turn. And then you just jam it all in.

If you want to make it a 3 street game, your 15$ bet on the flop is fine, but on the turn you also bet 15$, and that is way to small. You should go like 15$ on the flop, 30$ on the turn, 45$ on the river.
 
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Jdjakubisin

Jdjakubisin

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Correction

I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote he only had 20% chance of winning. 17 outs with 2 cards in the hole and 4 on the board means 17 outs/ 46 cards possible is actually a 37% chance, just better than 1/3.
 
teh_colonel_saigon

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I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote he only had 20% chance of winning. 17 outs with 2 cards in the hole and 4 on the board means 17 outs/ 46 cards possible is actually a 37% chance, just better than 1/3.

OESD + Flush draw is 15 outs, and he didn't pick that up 'til the river. You should never want a sucker like this to fold.

I agree with fundiver199, raise your normal amount + 1 blind to account for the limper. $12 total is good. As a result all following streets will be bigger, and you can get it probably on the turn. This is a good strategy since you are short stacked.

after $12 Preflop raise, pot of 36... betting at least 1/2 pot so 18 or more... with 2 other players you can put in $20+. Fundiver's plan is better here.

You should feel like you are mostly ahead on the flop and turn, so no reason to do anything but bet. And this fool is calling, so bet big and get it in.
 
Jdjakubisin

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OESD + Flush draw is 15 outs, and he didn't pick that up 'til the river. You should never want a sucker like this to fold.

I agree with fundiver199, raise your normal amount + 1 blind to account for the limper. $12 total is good. As a result all following streets will be bigger, and you can get it probably on the turn. This is a good strategy since you are short stacked.

after $12 Preflop raise, pot of 36... betting at least 1/2 pot so 18 or more... with 2 other players you can put in $20+. Fundiver's plan is better here.

You should feel like you are mostly ahead on the flop and turn, so no reason to do anything but bet. And this fool is calling, so bet big and get it in.


You're right, it is 15. I usually don't forget about the straights that would actually be flushes.

It felt right with the previous hands played that day to build up from $10 to $15 on the flop and then c-bet, but obviously you are right it wasn't enough pressure. When he decided to re-raise me up to $45, we both knew he didn't have it yet, but he was willing to take his 1/3 chances on the river card and pot commit himself before I got all the money in.
 
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fundiver199

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I think, the main lesson, you should take away from this, is to play much more aggressive on earlier streets, if you are going to use a short stack strategy. All in is the strongest possible move in NLH, and the advantage of being short is, its easy to put yourself in a position, where you can use that move.

If you started this hand like 300$ rather than 100$, you have to keep your bet sizes small, because you cant afford to expose your entire stack. But with 100$, you are happy to get it in, and therefore you can play your hand much faster.

This is also why, of the other side, its pretty poor to draw with a short stack or against a short stack. So you cant afford to get involved as much with speculative hands like small pairs or suited connectors, because you just dont have the implied odds, these hands need.

Now I personally prefer deep stacked poker, but if you are just starting out and dont have a huge bankroll, you should at least learn to use the advantages, which you gain from playing a short stack.

To be honest your turn bet look kind of weak, like you are almost playing money scared. And this is really something, you need to avoid. I know, 100$ is a fair bit of money, you can actually go out and buy something real with it. But in poker its just 33BB, and you need to be willing to pile it in, when you have something as good as a big overpair.

If you are not really bankrolled to play this 1/3$ live game, maybe honestly play online, where you can learn the game with much less money on the table. Most sites offer games as low as 1/2c or at least 2/5c, where the idea of losing a stack should not be to scary to anyone.
 
pentazepam

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I think fundiver199 covers it all in his posts.

If you are as short as 33bb the only reason not to get all the money in as early as possible with KK is if you have a read that the other villain likes to bet or raise his weak hands and bluffs then you check (or bet very small). If you are in position and someone bets in to you relatively big you can just call post.

Otherwise just to repeat: 3-bet bigger and bet bigger on the flop. If all the money is not in by then you still can't fold so the rest plays itself.

Also when you write raise on the flop and turn I assume you mean bet?
 
Jacki Burkhart

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you are not calculating the outs properly. when they have an OESD and a flush draw its 9 flush outs plus 6 straight outs (for instance you are double counting the As and the 6s in this example) so 15 outs. that's a smaller problem than your sizing.

now, every live cash table is different but I've played a lot of $1/3 in a lot of different settings and $10 preflop is a decent opening size in an unopened (un limped) pot. typically if I come in for a raise over a limper I will bump it up to $15. $12 or $13 would be ok but I like the bigger size because most limpers are "in for a penny in for a pound" and so I may as well extract more value from them while I'm likely to be ahead. also, you started with only $100? so with a strong 1 pair hand like KK it plays much better at a low stack to pot ratio. much easier to get it in on the turn while we are ahead if we make it bigger preflop.

on the flop you bet $15 in to $30. that's not terrible but we still have a value hand and multiway with draws available I prefer to go larger....I find that in low stakes live cash the draws are basically never folding on the flop, so we may as well get our value now, while we can. they are unlikely to pay us later on a "safe" turn or river when they have missed. NOW is when they will make undisciplined calls with hands that are far behind us. on this flop I would bet a minimum of $20 and probably $25

on the turn, had you bet larger preflop and flop then you would be sitting with $60 on a roughly $80 pot. it's a pretty easy move in on the turn. let him decide if he wants to call off with a draw getting 2.33:1 odds and needing 3:1 odds to break even.

as played, you bet $15 into a pot of $60. This 25% pot bet serves VERY LITTLE purpose to deny equity or protect your hand... the only merit is it can induce draws to shove. so if you WANT to get shoved on by a draw, then by all means bet small. Otherwise, check back and assess later (not recommended) or just keep it simple and bet a normal sized bet (something like 50-75% pot)



cliffs notes:

preflop I make it $15 leaving $85 behind

flop I make it $25 leaving $60 behind

turn I move in for $60 into a pot of $80 and leave the decision up to them.
 
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fundiver199

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on the turn, had you bet larger preflop and flop then you would be sitting with $60 on a roughly $80 pot. it's a pretty easy move in on the turn. let him decide if he wants to call off with a draw getting 2.33:1 odds and needing 3:1 odds to break even.

I think, where some people go wrong here, is, that they think, we want draws to call on the turn. But that is only the case, if they call incorrectly. If we are giving them 5:1 AND implied odds on the river, they are not making a mistake, and we are better off jamming and letting them make a correct fold.

In that way we deny them equity, and we also dont need to show our cards, so we keep people guessing. Maybe they feel, we are bullying them, and in a future hand they talk themselfes into making a bad call. Against people with wide draw heavy ranges, you really need to put the hammer down on the turn, when draws have weakened.

That is even the case, when you have stack behind, but its absolutely mandatory, when you are in a position, where you can profitably jam the turn and totally remove implied odds on the river from any drawing hand.

In this case Villain did our betting for us on the turn, but if he had just called the 15, we are in a shitty spot on the river with 90 in the pot and 60 left behind. Maybe we can get away on this particular card, since it was the absolute worst in the deck. But on any other spade or a 6, and probably even an offsuit A, we are paying him off, and if he miss, he is just going to fold.
 
John A

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You need to bet a little more on every street so you can make it to the turn w/ an easy jam. I think your big take away here is you should learn to plan your sizing a little better.
 
Jdjakubisin

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What Im getting

1) No one has a problem with calling someone out on a draw. While this is a game figured by odds we are still gambling.

2) I corrected myself late, but his odds were closer to 1/3. That is a non-issue if I hadn't typo'd it here in writing. I really wanted to hear more from people about when they push harder on obvious draws.

3) We may not have even gotten to that point if I had pushed harder with my bet sizing. C-betting the same size allowed him the opportunity to do what he did. He still hadn't seen the As or could have figured i had a better draw, so it might have worked. I've been consciously pushing 1/2 pot each time harder online this week on NLOP and have been in the top 10 daily.

4) I started fine, pushing harder at first at that table would not have allowed me any opportunity in my position.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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1) No one has a problem with calling someone out on a draw. While this is a game figured by odds we are still gambling.

2) I corrected myself late, but his odds were closer to 1/3. That is a non-issue if I hadn't typo'd it here in writing. I really wanted to hear more from people about when they push harder on obvious draws.

3) We may not have even gotten to that point if I had pushed harder with my bet sizing. C-betting the same size allowed him the opportunity to do what he did. He still hadn't seen the As or could have figured i had a better draw, so it might have worked. I've been consciously pushing 1/2 pot each time harder online this week on NLOP and have been in the top 10 daily.

4) I started fine, pushing harder at first at that table would not have allowed me any opportunity in my position.

this seems like a defensive reply, if you are happy with how you played it and think you got villain right where you wanted him, then I see no problems.

as to your question "when do you push harder vs obvious draws" I kind of don't.....what I mean is that my bet sizes are designed for the board texture overall. some boards I bet 1/3 pot some I bet 1/2 pot or 2/3 pot or full pot. but which size I choose is not based on whether or not I put them on an obvious draw, it's based on the board texture. There is an exception....if I'm playing those types of live players who will call any bet size with a flush draw (and those players for sure exist) then I will just always use larger sizing when there is a flush draw. something like 3/4 pot to full pot.
 
Jdjakubisin

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this seems like a defensive reply, if you are happy with how you played it and think you got villain right where you wanted him, then I see no problems.

as to your question "when do you push harder vs obvious draws" I kind of don't.....what I mean is that my bet sizes are designed for the board texture overall. some boards I bet 1/3 pot some I bet 1/2 pot or 2/3 pot or full pot. but which size I choose is not based on whether or not I put them on an obvious draw, it's based on the board texture. There is an exception....if I'm playing those types of live players who will call any bet size with a flush draw (and those players for sure exist) then I will just always use larger sizing when there is a flush draw. something like 3/4 pot to full pot.
Wow you seem like a great player. Your highest cash tells it all... Thank you for your attention. I liked hearing all of that.
 
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Preflop:
You increased a boat to 3bb out of position and post limper, which I think is correct, since you do not want to surprise with rare sizes and isolate yourself, when you have a top hand.
You notice that UTG pays (utg, being conservative), that makes you think, that you are likely to face a very narrow range. In this case you have an advantage: hands like AK; AQ; AJ; AT are exceeded 65% of the time, in preflop instance.
On the other hand, your kings have a preflop force of 86% against all possible pockets, and you only lose against the pocket of aces.
Big blind pays too. He may be a complaining player, but in this case you should pay close attention, since he has a very large advantage over your stack. (It covers you completely in 2.5 times.)
We can also think at this time that BB is a player more loose than UTG.
Flop:
It has an interesting texture.
UTG calls, standard movement, same as BB. It is possible that there are now several combos, which are waiting for the fourth street of spades.
The concrete thing is that at this point, your hand defeats many minor combinations such as: AT; KTs; QTs; JTs; T9s
At the same time some lines appear, which grant some equity to the villains, such as A-3; 5s-3s; Ks-3s and 5s-6s.
In the flop you beat a lot of hands, and you only lose with some flopped set or with A-A.
So right now, you are 75% favorite against all possibilities.
Your continuation bet of 50% of the pot seems reasonable to me. Although I would have chosen a slightly larger size. Let's say between 65-75% of the boat. In order to restrict the amount of speculative combos, which could improve on the turn.
Now on the turn, your bet of 25% of the pot, I find it with little blocking force.
Note that it is very likely that at this time, the OESD + FLUSH DRAW combos have been filtered: Ks-3s; Qs-3s; Js-3s; 6s-7s; Ks-Qs; Ks-Js; Ks-Ts; Qs-Js; QsTs; Js-Ts.
Considering all the possibilities you face, you are 60% favorite on the turn.
But it is a board with several implicit against you, so I would have leaned more for the check in this place. And before an increase, I would probably have folded, since I am very unbalanced and my hand has little profitable gameplay, for this texture.
If you look at the turn, you gave implicit odds to the villain from 5 to 1, when in reality, any such project pays with 2 to 1 or less, in live games.
In this case, we said that BB has the advantage of having you covered with chips. Until your cbet of the flop included, the villain spent only 10% of his stack. On the other hand you, after your turn bet, you are left with only 20 big blinds of stack. That is, you have spent 40% of your stack, before your re-reaise of the turn. And the bet you made, did not have enough strength, to be profitable, taking into account the characteristics of this hand.
Greetings.
 
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I would have bet more on the flop. Perhaps $25. With the flush draw, and low board, a lot of players will call even with A high there.
 
TheDude6622

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When you get called on the flop and turn, that should throw a lot of red flags. The shove on the river was not needed, as every out gets there on the river.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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When you get called on the flop and turn, that should throw a lot of red flags. The shove on the river was not needed, as every out gets there on the river.
Read it again. He got called on flop, raised on turn and he jammed and got called. There was no river action. Hero got it in good and was outdrawn.

I would just add that sitting 33 BB in a live cash game does not seem to fit this small-ball style of opening for 3 BB and betting 1/4 pot OTT. Short stacking is a thing but giving your opponent 5 to 1 to call turn is both giving him correct odds to continue and making your hand look weak. I would think that you did this to induce a raise to get stacks in except your description implies that was not your intent. I agree with most others here that your sizing on every street needs further examination and should not be static in every situation but should vary according to texture and opponents.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Also think the thread title is misleading. Sitting 33 BB and talking about a "Big crazy jam" makes it seem like you ripped it in pre or something.
 
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