$200 NLHE Full Ring: Bad play or cooler?

PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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This was live casino cash game again. I was in the button with JQo. I had roughly $110 stack. Everyone limped. It was a limped pot. So i decided to call $2 from a button. Pot didn't get raised, bb checked, and flop came out 6d7cQd. Everyone checked around and since I have the best position around, I betted out $5 to see where I stand. I get 3 callers. So some players, I'm putting them on straight draws, flush draws, middle pair, bottom pair, top pair, etc. Turn comes out Js. I got two pairs. 1st caller of the flop donk bets out $15 and 2 other callers call. I decided to shove all-in because pot was over $70, and since their calling range is wide to hit their draws, I figured that this was the best time to shove to price out their draws. two guys folded and last caller instant called. He rolls over 66. River was 5 or 4 but doesn't matter because either way, i lost the hand. So the dealer matched my stack to his stack, gave him his money, and overall, I lost about $50 on that hand. I just couldn't believe it and kinda blows that I lost. So I just decided to get up and leave.

Was there anything I could've done to avoid this or minimize the loss? This hand bothered me that I just couldn't play any further.
 
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jackaoliver

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Any information on this guy,was he a TAG? Two pair is a good hand, hbowever you have to think what hands you are going to get to call you on your shove, and why do you want to price out there draws. I am not saying do not raise for value so when the flush or straight is not made you still take a decent size pot. Is he calling a shove witha one pair type hand or a flush/straight draw , not uasually. i personally would flat call as you have position and can reevaluate on the turn. or alternativly raise for value. could of been played better but sets are hard to see so kind of a cooler
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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Any information on this guy,was he a TAG? Two pair is a good hand, hbowever you have to think what hands you are going to get to call you on your shove, and why do you want to price out there draws. I am not saying do not raise for value so when the flush or straight is not made you still take a decent size pot. Is he calling a shove witha one pair type hand or a flush/straight draw , not uasually. i personally would flat call as you have position and can reevaluate on the turn. or alternativly raise for value. could of been played better but sets are hard to see so kind of a cooler

Donk better was a LAG pos. Two callers, I assumed they were on draw. But when I shoved all-in, donk better folded along with the caller, last caller called. Last caller was TAG. I completely didn't see it coming. I remember the seating now.

I was on a button. When I betted $5 on the flop, Big blind, UTG+1 and MP2 called. On the turn, Big blind donk betted out $15, UTG+1 and MP2 called. I shoved for $45-48(bcz they put about $30 more from MP2's stack) more since I had all of them covered. He rolls over 66. I lost the hand. I've seen Big Blind and UTG+1 call raises on draws. Big Blind donk-betted to act like a pro who felt that he felt weakness at the table. Big blind was a huge donk. I figured that if I shoved here, I would get called by him. Hand history I have on big blind, he called off small blind's all-in bet of ($40)with middle pair QTon a flop 3 Q K when small blind had KT. I only thought of calling range of big blind for this reason. I was wondering if I should've picked up on two smooth calls and reconsider shoving.

This table was pretty loose. But in a limped pot like this, I somewhat feel that I should've still considered a set. But I'm just wondering why the guy with a set didn't reraise at the point and build a pot unless he was expecting me to raise or shove, which is what I did eventually and got pwned.

I felt like a complete donk or a sucker who overplayed top pair or two pairs. Felt embarrassed to play at that table that I just left even though I still had roughly $60 worth of chips. Just cashed it and decided to take a break.
 
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jackaoliver

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Good idea to stand up, no point in playing on tilt or if you are not comfortable at the table. I would of waited a bit but then gone back as there is so much money to be made from these types of players
 
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HooDooKoo

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Donk better was a LAG pos. Two callers, I assumed they were on draw. But when I shoved all-in, donk better folded along with the caller, last caller called. Last caller was TAG. I completely didn't see it coming. I remember the seating now.

I was on a button. When I betted $5 on the flop, Big blind, UTG+1 and MP2 called. On the turn, Big blind donk betted out $15, UTG+1 and MP2 called. I shoved for $45-48(bcz they put about $30 more from MP2's stack) more since I had all of them covered. He rolls over 66. I lost the hand. I've seen Big Blind and UTG+1 call raises on draws. Big Blind donk-betted to act like a pro who felt that he felt weakness at the table. Big blind was a huge donk. I figured that if I shoved here, I would get called by him. Hand history I have on big blind, he called off small blind's all-in bet of ($40)with middle pair QTon a flop 3 Q K when small blind had KT. I only thought of calling range of big blind for this reason. I was wondering if I should've picked up on two smooth calls and reconsider shoving.

This table was pretty loose. But in a limped pot like this, I somewhat feel that I should've still considered a set. But I'm just wondering why the guy with a set didn't reraise at the point and build a pot unless he was expecting me to raise or shove, which is what I did eventually and got pwned.

I felt like a complete donk or a sucker who overplayed top pair or two pairs. Felt embarrassed to play at that table that I just left even though I still had roughly $60 worth of chips. Just cashed it and decided to take a break.

I think it's more cooler than bad play, but you should have at least considered the fact that one of your opponents had trip sixes or sevens. Even if you had, it's a tough fold unless you know enough about your opponent and his playing style to suspect that you were in bad shape.

The fact that you're thinking about it is a good sign, though, and trips will definitely cross your mind next time this happens.

Best of luck.

-HooDooKoo
 
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swingro

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I do not know what to say. Standard line against limpers is raise hard because exactely this is happening. Slow playing a set w8ting for a check raise is not something unbelievable.
 
dgiharris

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I'm going to dissect your post point by point and give analysis. I apologize in advance if I come across dickish and brutal. Just want to give you honest feedback.

This was live casino cash game again. I was in the button with JQo. I had roughly $110 stack.
You are at 55bb which is on the borderline of being short stacked. Short stack play is decidedly different than normal play but I'll leave that for later.

What is important to note is that thus far you've yet to include ANY meaningful information on your villains or table tendencies. Poker is all about adjusting to the situation and exploiting the leaks of your villains. How can you exploit their leaks if you aren't paying attention to them and figuring out the table dynamics and villain tendencies???

This was live casino cash game again. I was in the button with JQo. I had roughly $110 stack. Everyone limped. It was a limped pot. So i decided to call $2 from a button. Pot didn't get raised.....

In general this is your first mistake. You are in position and have QJ. I easily raise in this spot 75% of the time depending on my image and table dynamics. A raise gets a bit tricky here since you are at 55bb but I'd probably have raised it to $12 with a plan to c-bet $15 on pretty much all flops.


...flop came out 6d7cQd. Everyone checked around and since I have the best position around.

The question you need to ask yourself is how are you taking advantage of having the best position? By limping preflop? What's the point of having the best position if you don't use it. For shtts and giggles try the following experiment. For your next few sessions, commit to raising 75% of the time from the CO or BTN with a range of JT+, 88-TT (obviously you should be raising 100% with JJ+, AJ+) and then if you get 2 callers or less c-bet 100% of all flops 1/2 pot and see what results you get.

....flop came out 6d7cQd. Everyone checked around and since I have the best position around, I betted out $5 to see where I stand..

Yuck. This is something that all fish seem to do. Betting to see where you are at is not winning poker. Bet to preserve equity. Bet to extract value. Bet to establish your image, strength and line you chose to rep. Bet to get weaker hands to call or better hands to fold. Bet to balance. Bet to deceive. All of the above are legitimate reasons to bet. But betting to "see where you are at" is a losing mindset and too easy to exploit. The only saving grace is that live players at the 1/2nl level by and large have so many leaks they don't exploit other players who "bet to see where they are at".

Incidentally, on this board, bet around 2/3 pot to full pot on flop.

...So some players, I'm putting them on straight draws, flush draws, middle pair, bottom pair, top pair, etc..

This seems about right, since it was a multiway limped pot, ranges are going to be pretty wide

...Turn comes out Js. I got two pairs. 1st caller of the flop donk bets out $15 and 2 other callers call. I decided to shove all-in because pot was over $70, and since their calling range is wide to hit their draws.

I love it, easy shove

...Turn comes out Js. I got two pairs. 1st caller of the flop donk bets out $15 and 2 other callers call. I decided to shove all-in because pot was over $70, and since their calling range is wide to hit their draws, I figured that this was the best time to shove to price out their draws.

This is the absolute positively incorrect way to think about this situation. The hardest things that beginners and recreational players have trouble understanding is that you never ever ever want to price out draws or push drawers out of a pot. No no no...

What you want is to get drawers to call for more than their hands are worth.

If I was in a hand, eff stacks $200 and I had AK

board ($35) :ah4: :7s4: :9s4: :3c4:

for the sake of argument lets say we know our villain has :js4: :ts: and is on the draw. We know this villain loves to draw and he will call any bet up to $100. So we know that if we bet $100 he will call but if we bet $101 he will fold. What should we do?

We should bet $100 because we WANT him to call!

using poker stove we see that in the above spot we have 75% equity
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,011,567 games 1.484 secs 2,029,357 games/sec

Board: Ad 9s 7s 3c
Dead:

equity win
Hand 0: 74.973% { AsKh }
Hand 1: 25.027% { JsTs }

if we bet $100 and V calls then our EV works out to

EV = 75% x ($100 + $35) = 75% x $135 = $101

However, if we had bet $101 and V folds then we only win $35

So, as relates to your hand. Your shove is 100% correct however your reason for shoving is not correct. Out intent is not to push out draws but rather our intent is to get all the draws to call for incorrect odds which 1/2nl live players love to do.

to be fair, you didn't exactly say you were trying to push them out, you said you were trying to "price them out". However, in the live game, when players say "price out draws" they normally mean "push out draws".

I just want to clarify as to why the above is the wrong mindset.

The reason you are shoving this turn is because you have monster equity and it is likely you will get called by all types of lesser hands such as draws and weaker two pairs or even pair + flush draw combos... that is why we shove here.

... two guys folded and last caller instant called. He rolls over 66. River was 5 or 4 but doesn't matter because either way, i lost the hand....

Here is some food for thought. In order to profitably setmine you need a MINIMUM of 8:1 odds. Standard convention though is to get at least 15:1 odds because you aren't going to stack off all the time you hit a set, that is, sometimes you will hit a set and no one else has anything and they fold...

So, when you limp for $2 with $110 behind what odds are you giving to your villains to set mine?

You are giving them 55:1 odds which is much greater than the 15:1 odds they need to profitably set mine.

However, if you had raised to $12 then your villains would have been getting less than 10:1 odds meaning that for the most part they are now INCORRECT in calling you to set mine against you...

Overall, the hand played out fine and is just a cooler. When you are relatively short stacked there isn't much in the way of "reads" that will enable you to get off top two pair when the pot is roughly equal to 30% or greater of effective stacks behind.

I know I gave you some grief over not raising pre but that isn't a glaring leak. raising is more a function of your image and table dynamics and you didn't really go into detail about that. but in general, you need to be raising at least 50% of the time from the CO or BTN when you have JT-AT, QJ, KJ and you should be raising 100% of the time when you have AJ+, KQ
 
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