$200 NLHE Full Ring: AKs OOP facing 3 bet

LeGenie · Nov 24, 2013

Hi I would like some feedback on a hand that I recently played at 1/2 NL table.

I was holding A:diamond: K:diamond: in the BB.

Villain (UTG+1) limps, CO, BTN, and SB limp. It then gets to me in the BB.

I raise to $20. Villain 3 bets to $55. Hero?? $83 in Pot

I just sat down at this table so I have no info on villain. The effective stacks are villain's with $90 so he is prob not 3 betting light.

His range is composed of QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs, "AQs a big maybe" My equity against his range is 41% so I am priced in to make the call but is there anyway you could get away from this hand? The money is going all-in on the flop regardless of board texture so you could say that I am getting 1 to 1 pre-flop and my equity is less than that given that villain's range is a slight favorite against mine.

Your thoughts are highly appreciated!

Beasty2k · Nov 25, 2013

LeGenie said:
Hi I would like some feedback on a hand that I recently played at 1/2 NL table.

I was holding A♦ K♦ in the BB.

Villain (UTG+1) limps, CO, BTN, and SB limp. It then gets to me in the BB.

I raise to $20. Villain 3 bets to $55. Hero?? $83 in Pot

I just sat down at this table so I have no info on villain. The effective stacks are villain's with $90 so he is prob not 3 betting light.

His range is composed of QQ, KK, AA, AKo, AKs, "AQs a big maybe" My equity against his range is 41% so I am priced in to make the call but is there anyway you could get away from this hand? The money is going all-in on the flop regardless of board texture so you could say that I am getting 1 to 1 pre-flop and my equity is less than that given that villain's range is a slight favorite against mine.

Your thoughts are highly appreciated!

I first wrote this:
I think the range you assign him is a bit too generous. I highly doubt someone limp raises AK (and never AQ), even QQ is questionable. I think it's KK/AA 100% of the time, of which AA is 75%. I would fold, without any reads.

If you see him doing this again later in the session, I would consider a call but an UTG limp/raise or limp/shove is alomst always AA imo.

Then I realized he is short-stacked. I still think you can discount AQ & AK (the latter would try and hit a flop, then raise/shove). So basically adding QQ and maaaybe JJ to his range.

Blobweird123 · Nov 25, 2013

I think you are both giving the average 1/2 player too much credit. I've seen this with hands like QJs/66/KQo. I'm jamming here no question. IF we aren't flipping or better then wp gg

Henreiman · Nov 26, 2013

Blobweird123 said:
I think you are both giving the average 1/2 player too much credit. I've seen this with hands like QJs/66/KQo. I'm jamming here no question. IF we aren't flipping or better then wp gg

I think this is a bit naive. A better player would actually WANT to include those types of hands in his 3b IP range - BUT ONLY IF HE WAS DEEPER! Because V has $90 at a 1/2 table, I think we can ASSUME he is fishy...but fishy generally does not mean capable of these maniac plays, unless we can specifically target him as a spewy maniac.

This is probably, as much as it sucks to give up AKs, a fold the first time. Unless we can confidently including JJ in V's range (which we probably can't), it is not profitable to 4b with no FE. Further, I highly doubt we are ever crushing V. Fold

Blobweird123 · Nov 26, 2013

Not naive at all, he's short and we have AKs. If you're not willing to get it in for under 50bb's pre with a fish holding AKs then you aren't playing the right game. And of course a better play has those hands in his 3b range, and that's what we want, which is why I said it? Folding here is a mistake, calling here isn't great going to a flop of less than 1 SPR ESS. So just jam.

Edit: Crap I totally forgot. AK is just a drawing hand. Clear fold!

twohaha · Nov 26, 2013

I think the range that you assigned him is pretty accurate. Since villain bought in for only 40bb, we can assume that he's not that good. You need to risk 70 to win 180 (assuming he goes all in) that's means that you need to win 38%of the time. You probably have a better chance than that, so you should shove.

rumsey182 · Nov 26, 2013

flop equity and allin equity are two different things

Beanfacekilla · Nov 26, 2013

Villain has KK+.

I would be shocked if he had less than KK.

Honestly, it is probably AA.

Since villain is short, you could choose to gamble. But you are a huge dog, regardless of how short villain is.

If he doesn't have KK or AA, he is just a spewtard.

Without any info on villain, I would have to give him credit for KK+ here.

Edit: I do realize that villain is short here. Getting it in is not horrible. But FWIW people limp/reraise all the time on live tables with KK+. Even with odds and all that I still think AK is a huge dog here.

hackmeplz · Nov 26, 2013

Oh god please don't fold.

hackmeplz · Nov 26, 2013

Like it's hard to get KK+. If you pay him off 100% of the time he has it then cool good for him he wins a tiny bit from you in the long term. If however you fold and his range is wider he's going to regularly be destroying you, as you'll be folding wayyyyyyyy too much. You have a hand that has very good equity against any reasonable range, and one that blocks his nutted range. Even if his range is QQ+/AK you have way more than enough equity to get it in.

Beanfacekilla · Nov 26, 2013

hackmeplz said:
Like it's hard to get KK+. If you pay him off 100% of the time he has it then cool good for him he wins a tiny bit from you in the long term. If however you fold and his range is wider he's going to regularly be destroying you, as you'll be folding wayyyyyyyy too much. You have a hand that has very good equity against any reasonable range, and one that blocks his nutted range. Even if his range is QQ+/AK you have way more than enough equity to get it in.

I know you are a really good player man.

I also understand what you are saying about people being able to exploit you here if you fold.

I would probably get it in too.

I am just saying dude has KK+ 99% of the time here. People are pretty straightforward at live tables. And at $1/$2 we are dealing with really bad players who have no idea WTF they are doing (I guess even me).

DunningKruger · Nov 26, 2013

Live game, so reads are everything. Also relevant is the number of players that generally go the flop in this game and % of times the pot goes to the flop without a raise. Generally though if the poker gods are going to give me AKs vs KK+ against a 45bb window licker then nice hand sir wp etc. Keep limping those bullets.

Blobweird123 · Nov 26, 2013

DunningKruger said:
Live game, so reads are everything. Also relevant is the number of players that generally go the flop in this game and % of times the pot goes to the flop without a raise. Generally though if the poker gods are going to give me AKs vs KK+ against a 45bb window licker then nice hand sir wp etc. Keep limping those bullets.

Hero just sat at table so no reads but yes this exactly. Why everyone thinks this is a fold or flat is beyond me. We have a super premium hand. Against a range of AQo+/AQs+/QQ+ we are a 53% favorite, and this range is narrower than I would assign here. So pretty clear shove. Turn his range into something like AJs+/AQo+/KQs/KQo/88+ and we are now 55/45. Im willing to take that flip any day of the week here vs a shorty.

DunningKruger · Nov 26, 2013

Blobweird123 said:
Hero just sat at table so no reads but yes this exactly.

Hmm you're right he did say that didn't he. It's just that OP has villain's range pegged pretty exact apparently in spite of that thereby answering his own question.

Mr Sandbag · Nov 26, 2013

FOLD. Here's why...

You say you have no info, but you kinda do. The fact that he's playing with only $90 shows that he's probably not a good player.

From my experience, the better a player is, the weaker his limp/re-raise range will be. The weaker a player is, the stronger his limp/re-raise range will be.

Bad players set traps (or at least try). They look down at AA and think they've got the hand won, so they limp and hope someone raises. They don't understand how transparent or risky this move is. Would they really do this with something like A-Q? Chances are, they will just flat your raise and then fold the flop if they miss. Plus, when a weak player 3bets AT ALL, it usually means AK/JJ/QQ/KK/AA (unless he's an aggro, but most bad 1/2 players aren't).

When a good player limp/re-raises or limp/shoves, you may not want to fold. A good player knows how much of a mistake it is to limp with good hands. They want value from their hands, and they rarely want to take a big hand to a multiway pot, especially when OOP. If a good player does this to you, he's not strong, period.

Sorry Blobweird, there is just no chance villain's range includes any AQ, and it very rarely includes AK. Best case scenario for OP is QQ and a flip. Otherwise, he is dominated by KK/AA. Bad players flat raises all the time, even with such short stacks. They don't care. They'll call $30 with a flush draw on the flop even if they only have $8 left behind. Villain is 3betting because he's got a massive hand.

Fold and move on. If he's got KK/AA, I'm sure he'll show it.

Blobweird123 · Nov 27, 2013

DunningKruger said:
Hmm you're right he did say that didn't he. It's just that OP has villain's range pegged pretty exact apparently in spite of that thereby answering his own question.

Yeah I thought it was a bit funny that we have no reads but we know villains range

This whole thread is becoming lol. Let's all just fold AKs to half stacks!

Blobweird123 · Nov 27, 2013

Mr Sandbag said:
FOLD. Here's why...

You say you have no info, but you kinda do. The fact that he's playing with only $90 shows that he's probably not a good player.

From my experience, the better a player is, the weaker his limp/re-raise range will be. The weaker a player is, the stronger his limp/re-raise range will be.

Bad players set traps (or at least try). They look down at AA and think they've got the hand won, so they limp and hope someone raises. They don't understand how transparent or risky this move is. Would they really do this with something like A-Q? Chances are, they will just flat your raise and then fold the flop if they miss. Plus, when a weak player 3bets AT ALL, it usually means AK/JJ/QQ/KK/AA (unless he's an aggro, but most bad 1/2 players aren't).

When a good player limp/re-raises or limp/shoves, you may not want to fold. A good player knows how much of a mistake it is to limp with good hands. They want value from their hands, and they rarely want to take a big hand to a multiway pot, especially when OOP. If a good player does this to you, he's not strong, period.

Sorry Blobweird, there is just no chance villain's range includes any AQ, and it very rarely includes AK. Best case scenario for OP is QQ and a flip. Otherwise, he is dominated by KK/AA. Bad players flat raises all the time, even with such short stacks. They don't care. They'll call $30 with a flush draw on the flop even if they only have $8 left behind. Villain is 3betting because he's got a massive hand.

Fold and move on. If he's got KK/AA, I'm sure he'll show it.

This is hilarious. Have you ever played live 1/2 before? You make a ton of assumptions here. I have seen this enough to say its never purely KK+. I had a hand last time I was at the casino, UTG+1 limps with $80 behind, we have 99 on BTN and raise, he jams. Much sicker spot and pretty close but we're risking <10% of our stack (super deep) so we call, flop comes AKx turn x river x, he never shows and we hold. That is one example out of many. So go right ahead and iso huge then fold and give tons of your chips to a weak player with no fight whatsoever, ill continue calling and winning here.

cardriverx · Nov 27, 2013

you have AK vs less than 50 BB its a snap shove. Also those saying better play = weaker limp/re-raise, well a good player will never limp/re-raise without any serious reads so that is kind of a moot point.

Mr Sandbag · Nov 27, 2013

Blobweird123 said:
This is hilarious. Have you ever played live 1/2 before? You make a ton of assumptions here. I have seen this enough to say its never purely KK+. I had a hand last time I was at the casino, UTG+1 limps with $80 behind, we have 99 on BTN and raise, he jams. Much sicker spot and pretty close but we're risking <10% of our stack (super deep) so we call, flop comes AKx turn x river x, he never shows and we hold. That is one example out of many. So go right ahead and iso huge then fold and give tons of your chips to a weak player with no fight whatsoever, ill continue calling and winning here.

Lol have I ever played? It's ALL I play. So yeah, I'll continue to "give tons of my chips to a weak player." I'd rather fold when I know I'm beat and have my chips go to a weak player that I can outplay later anyway.

Blobweird123 · Nov 27, 2013

Mr Sandbag said:
Lol have I ever played? It's ALL I play. So yeah, I'll continue to "give tons of my chips to a weak player." I'd rather fold when I know I'm beat and have my chips go to a weak player that I can outplay later anyway.

Done arguing, think what you will.

LeGenie · Nov 30, 2013

Mr Sandbag said:
FOLD. Here's why...

You say you have no info, but you kinda do. The fact that he's playing with only $90 shows that he's probably not a good player.

From my experience, the better a player is, the weaker his limp/re-raise range will be. The weaker a player is, the stronger his limp/re-raise range will be.

Bad players set traps (or at least try). They look down at AA and think they've got the hand won, so they limp and hope someone raises. They don't understand how transparent or risky this move is. Would they really do this with something like A-Q? Chances are, they will just flat your raise and then fold the flop if they miss. Plus, when a weak player 3bets AT ALL, it usually means AK/JJ/QQ/KK/AA (unless he's an aggro, but most bad 1/2 players aren't).

When a good player limp/re-raises or limp/shoves, you may not want to fold. A good player knows how much of a mistake it is to limp with good hands. They want value from their hands, and they rarely want to take a big hand to a multiway pot, especially when OOP. If a good player does this to you, he's not strong, period.

Sorry Blobweird, there is just no chance villain's range includes any AQ, and it very rarely includes AK. Best case scenario for OP is QQ and a flip. Otherwise, he is dominated by KK/AA. Bad players flat raises all the time, even with such short stacks. They don't care. They'll call $30 with a flush draw on the flop even if they only have $8 left behind. Villain is 3betting because he's got a massive hand.

Fold and move on. If he's got KK/AA, I'm sure he'll show it.

I folded ... He showed QQ

Mr Sandbag · Nov 30, 2013

LeGenie said:
I folded ... He showed QQ

Yup!

And last night I saw solid players limp/shove twice. Both times they were really weak.

Pretty sure my theory is spot on.

duggs · Nov 30, 2013

sand folding here is absurd.... come on

Mr Sandbag · Nov 30, 2013

duggs said:
sand folding here is absurd.... come on

Not in 1/2 live. Villain's range is QQ+ always.

duggs · Nov 30, 2013

doesnt matter and its definitely not

$200 NLHE Full Ring: AKs OOP facing 3 bet

LeGenie

Rock Star

Beasty2k

Rock Star

Blobweird123

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Henreiman

Visionary

Blobweird123

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twohaha

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rumsey182

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Beanfacekilla

Legend

hackmeplz

Sleep Faster

hackmeplz

Sleep Faster

Beanfacekilla

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DunningKruger

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Blobweird123

CC's very own Dead Head

DunningKruger

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Mr Sandbag

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Blobweird123

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Blobweird123

CC's very own Dead Head

cardriverx

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Mr Sandbag

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Blobweird123

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LeGenie

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Mr Sandbag

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duggs

Killing me softly

Mr Sandbag

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duggs

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