$200 NLHE Full Ring: AKo vs supergood villain VERY deep line chk

JohnnyFronts

JohnnyFronts

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$200 NL HE Full Ring: AKo vs supergood villain VERY deep line chk

$1-$2 Live game. About 3 hours into session table is 8 handed and table dynamics provided for a loose game w/ lots of marginal hands being shown down. Villain in this hand is a good friend of mine and the best player in the area imo (he beats 1kNL and 2kNL in vegas consistently). He is also VERY smart, thinking, and very aggro heads up and has zero fear of putting on the heat. I have ~$685 and he has me covered. We have both been opening lots of pots in and out of position and have been 3betting the table liberally cause we can get away with it, but we usually avoid each other. When he opened I was sure it was another standard open with a wide range from any SC's and pairs all the way up to AK and QQ. KK and AA i rule out based on obv pf action. Just want any and all thoughts on diff lines I could take given the dynamics.

Hero is dealt AdKh

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Villain raises to $16, 1 fold, Hero raises to $50, all folds, Villain calls.

Flop: Ac2c3c (pot $103)

Villain bets $75, Hero raises to $200, Villain calls

Turn: 10s (pot $503)

Villain checks, Hero?

At this point keep in mind I still have ~435 left in my stack. Any and all thoughts appreciated.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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This seems like a pretty bad spot to 3-bet AKo in position. I don't want to play a big pot with 1 pair 300 bb's deep against a good player. Plus shutting the fish out is bad, because not only will they juice up the pot, but they'll make the good player play in a more straight-forward way.
 
qwerrk

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A set of 2s or 3s seems discountable so about the only thing keeping you from shoving has to be the threat of a flush. He could be working suited connectors but if they were clubs then I have to think he would have re-raised. Suited 54 or 65 are possible as is A-rag but I sense your buddy isn't one to mess w A-rag too often. His call would fit 6c5c on up to ~JcTc as he can wait to see that the 4th club does not show letting you steal with an over-club...

So, bet or check? Very tempting to shove but I think check is the right move here and if a 4th club does not river up AND he makes the bet, you have to call. If no 4th club and he does NOT bet, you can put in ~1/3-1/2 your stack and walk with the pot. I could be all wet here. Since he is one tricky SOB, he could easily be waiting for you to hang yourself. As such, checking it down is not a bad option either.
 
BelgoSuisse

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I would tend to agree with c9. if the table is really two good players and a bunch of fishes giving away their money, i think there's little point in the good players going after each other. Strategically that's -EV for both of you and +EV for the fishes who don't get to donate money for this hand.

Beyond that, the raise sizes preflop actually make for a decent stack to pot ratio to play TPTK even though you're super deep, so that's good.

As played, i assume a lot of the monsters he could have like sets and low flushes would probably try to get it in on this flop, so when he flats the raise to $200 i'd feel reasonably confident with our hand and probably continue betting.

Of course, since it's a friend of yours there's probably a lot of history going on between you two, so that could affect things quite a lot.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Yeah, I can't help but wonder if we have overplayed our hand a little here given the circumstances - our line is reminiscent of one who wants to play for stacks and I'm not sure we want to play for nearly 350bb stacks with TPTK on an awkward board against the strongest player at the table. Any really strong hand he will most likely 3bet-shove the flop with for fear of potential action killing turn cards, but at the same time I wonder if many second-best hands will continue against a turn bet. I'd still rather we get the money in now than face the prospect of second-guessing ourselves if we check and a bad river card hits though. We're definitely good against villain's range on the turn (his range is pretty wide given how large the pot is - there are lost of weaker made hand+draw combos he could have, for example).
 
JohnnyFronts

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Agreed on the point about playing this hand for stacks, that was fo sho not my intention, however I played the hand to make money, not to make money against a specific fish. Imo it would be weak to just call and fold all the flops I miss, hence my 3bet pre. We have a history Belgo, however it played a very small role in this hand - we dont intentionally try to level each other for the glory of beating one another. My real dilema was whether or not to bet or check the turn. I had him pregged on only AK or AQ and felt for sure he would jam the river if a blank peels.
 
Z

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This is a spot where straight forward play turns our hand face up and generally won't win us a big pot but will lose us one... therefore Id usually get a little deceiving and use our position

When villain bets $75 on the flop, I'd first immediately recheck my cards (as if Im club checking) take some time and then just call. This allows villain to double barrell into us on the turn with inferior holdings as our hand looks something like KcKx or similiar, as well as pot control the times that we have been outflopped.

Yea it sucks if a club comes, but if that's the case and he bets again it's an easy fold and we haven't exploded this pot.... the great part is that if a club does come and he checks, it's a decent spot to bluff (since our hand looks like KcKx) for the occasions that we either A) have the same hand or B) they flopped a small flush against us

The question then is what to do on a non club turn if villain bets into us again. Well part of the reason we flatted the flop is to pot control, but the other big reason was for deception. We want our hand to look like a PP with a big club, so we are expecting an aggressive villain to fire into us again with a variety of hands... so we're certainly not folding, but the question is whether to raise at this point or just flat again. I could be persuaded either way, but I think I like flatting again slightly more. If the river blanks we call the last shell if he bets. If it clubs and he checks, we might bluff, or if he bets we fold. We could just get stacks in on the turn (or close to it) by raising, but I think it folds out a lot of hands we beat (maybe AxQc might call?) and puts a ton of money in drawing dead against the hands that beat us.

As play (you raised the flop) I'd probably just jam the turn since we've swollen up this pot already and a shove is basically a PSB. A check behind basically looks like AK to a thinking villain and thus I don't think we can extract any more value out of him on the river with inferior hands by checking behind here on the turn, and we're calling his shove on the river anyway (Id assume) so I just shove it now to protect against random AxQc or whatever type hands.

If villains are bad or call too much then I'd raise flop jam turn, but against decent and better thinking villains I prefer the line I suggested
 
P

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I like calling preflop here - enabling us to use position without swelling the pot to such an extent that we're often going to be playing for all of our stack by the turn. We don't always have to "fold all the flops we miss" - we could and often should be calling with a wide range of hands preflop and in a situation like this where it is ostensibly deep stacks and your really wide range against villain's really wide range, position is an even more huge deal than usual. Of course you could have history with your opponent that might make reraising him preflop optimal, but you haven't really specified anything in your post that would make me especially think this way.
 
ItsMe

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As the hand is played I'd put him on a big ace. Your play preflop could indicate a mid(?)/big pair or big ace. When you correctly bet at the pot post flop - villain re-raises to cause a fold of a big pair if that was your hand.

On the turn, you have the option of betting - if this is analysed correctly he will call but probably not apply pressure. If he re-raises the turn bet then it reads like he does have suited connectors in clubs (JcQc JcTc) - his initial pre flop raise then indicates he had a playable hand that plays well multiway anyway but was trying to shake off the two limpers. If you check, he will bet it as he has shown strength, and I don't think you will know whether your hand is good or not and would have to fold to a reasonable bet. So the best option is a half-pot bet imho. If you get re-raised again then fold.
 
Z

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As the hand is played I'd put him on a big ace. Your play preflop could indicate a mid(?)/big pair or big ace. When you correctly bet at the pot post flop - villain re-raises to cause a fold of a big pair if that was your hand.

On the turn, you have the option of betting - if this is analysed correctly he will call but probably not apply pressure. If he re-raises the turn bet then it reads like he does have suited connectors in clubs (JcQc JcTc) - his initial pre flop raise then indicates he had a playable hand that plays well multiway anyway but was trying to shake off the two limpers. If you check, he will bet it as he has shown strength, and I don't think you will know whether your hand is good or not and would have to fold to a reasonable bet. So the best option is a half-pot bet imho. If you get re-raised again then fold.

So your plan is to bet $250 on the turn and fold if he shoves needing to call $185 into a $ $1185 pot :confused::confused::confused:

In addition villain is first to act so we can't check to him and villain bet the flop and we raised
 
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