$200 NLHE Full Ring: AK on Button

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Gunner57

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SB- $1400
BB- $300
UTG- $550
UTG+1- $95
CO- $400
BTN (Hero)- $350

1/3NL Live table. SB is a pro and plays TAG, UTG is Tight, UTG+1 is loose bad player, CO is slight LAG, Hero's table image is LAG.
BTN looks and has AcKs

UTG limps for $3, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, BTN raises to $18, SB calls, BB folds, UTG raises to $40, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, BTN calls, SB calls.

Flop: Kc, 3d, 3c

SB checks, UTG bets $150, UTG+1 calls for remaining $45, BTN.....?
 
bgomez89

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ew... utg limp/raises preflop are usually the nuts but you can't fold to a min raise. I think I like calling here, this way SB has a chance to squeeze. I'm probably going to get money in on the turn though. Still worried about UTG but whatever
 
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postflopper

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u can't call in this spot. the only hand UTG will bet this big (150 into a 160 pot) on this flop after limp/raising preflop is AA and AK. u're basically calling in the hopes of chopping, what's more the inevitable shove u'll face on the turn due to the flush draw on the flop.

folding is best here, u have $40 invested, no need to get the other $310 in hoping to chop.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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Even if you could add QQ to UTGs range which puts you ahead by a reasonable margin (I doubt this since UTG wasn't exactly trying to narrow down the field by raising nearly minimum), there is the problem of the SB whom you say is a pro yet has put a large amount of money in the pot without any aggression. His seems an awkward spot to mine, so I'm inclined to put him on a range similar to UTG.
I fold here and it seems to me the best place to fold was preflop after UTG's raise.
 
Pascal-lf

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Calling pre, hitting an amazing flop for your hand then folding seems horrible. Either fold pre or call here and get it in on any turn.
 
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baudib1

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depending on how tight UTG is, probably folding pre.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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Calling pre, hitting an amazing flop for your hand then folding seems horrible. Either fold pre or call here and get it in on any turn.

Yeah but if by the flop you realize your call pre was a mistake, there's imo no reason to throw good money after bad.
 
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johnnytt

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Calling pre, hitting an amazing flop for your hand then folding seems horrible. Either fold pre or call here and get it in on any turn.
+1 no point in calling pre if you plan on folding when you hit your hand on flop.
 
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Gunner57

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Would it be correct to fold AK on the button to a min raise pre? I think it is also difficult to fold AK unless I have a specific read that I am against AA or KK especially with 3 or 4 way action where if I am up against QQ or JJ I still have pot odds to call since I have two overs. Is this assumption correct?

Let me know what you think of these computations on after the flop:

Looking at it if I believe that UTG would only raise with a premimum hand like JJ-AA, or AQ/AK. There are only these many combinations of hands:

JJ- 6 possible combinations (JhJc, JhJs, JhJd, ect)
QQ- 6
KK- 3 (minus my K of s)
AA- 3 (minus my A of c)
AQ suited- 6 (minus my A of c)
AK- 9 (minus my Ac and Ks)
Total hands he could have are: 33

of which 6 I am behind with only a 4% out (runner runner flush) and in 9 hands we tie. So looking at it this way should be a 80% favorite to win or tie?

Because of the limp raise UTG maybe we could say tripple the chances he has AA or KK... so there would be 45 total hand combinations of which 18 hands that have me beat. making me a 60% favorite to be ahead, with still a 4% chance to improve?

Should I be looking at this another way?
 
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baudib1

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do you really think a tight player limp-reraises UTG and then bets $150 into 4 on this flop with AQ, JJ-QQ? A serious problem we face here is that we hold the Ac thereby blocking the nut flush draw, meaning UTG has essentially no semibluffing range. I'd fold pre and if I couldn't help myself, I'd turbo fold this flop.
 
ben_rhyno

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UTG limp 3-bets and then almost pots the flop. This is basically a dream flop for AK, and I don't think UTG's range is exclusively AA. That said, I think AK, QQ and AA are the most likely parts of his range to do this. The flop bet is huge, so I think we can discount QQ (unless he is trying to get people to lay down a king or JJ), and his range is almost always AK and AA. 12 combo's total, 9 of which you chop with and 3 of which you have 2 outs against (8%). With the dead money in the pot I lean towards either a call, or reshove to isolate.
 
Pascal-lf

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Who are you isolating when you shove and why?
 
ben_rhyno

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I wrote out a long reply and it didn't make sense to me. Basically, I'm iso-ing v UTG as if we reshove, SB will fold his flush daws probably and we well have the best hand or be chopping with UTG. We have a non-negligible amount of fold equity (albeit very small). I don't really like this situation at all though so am a bit confused
 
Pascal-lf

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So what about when UTG has aces? Also, won't jamming just fold out any dominated hands SB might have like KQs/KJs/JJ which are likely way behind and you can get a bit of value from on later streets?
 
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Gunner57

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do you really think a tight player limp-reraises UTG and then bets $150 into 4 on this flop with AQ, JJ-QQ? A serious problem we face here is that we hold the Ac thereby blocking the nut flush draw, meaning UTG has essentially no semibluffing range. I'd fold pre and if I couldn't help myself, I'd turbo fold this flop.
You would really fold AK on the btn pre to a min raise?
Not criticizing but would like to hear reasoning behind because unless villian holds AA or KK wouldnt you be -ev with 2 other callers adding to the pot?
 
Pascal-lf

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Where's this min raise you are on about? There's no minraise, there's a limp 3bet from the UTG which isn't even a min 3bet.
 
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Gunner57

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sorry you are right it is not a min raise but it is a light 3bet as (min 3 bet is 36 not 40). Still same question though.... Would like to know reasoning behind letting AK go on the button to this raise
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

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Light 3bet is not the same as a small 3bet. A light 3bet means 3betting with a wide range, not 3betting small.

Limp 3bets in early position from unknowns are generally a sign of incredible strength - AA/KK normally.
 
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RdotJdot

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I agree that limp 3bet looks incredibly strong most likely aces. At this point prolly best to fold tho folding pre would have been best after utg 3 bet. I hate calling 3bet making ur hand and then folding to flop bet but its better than losing whole stack I suppose
PHP:
 
ben_rhyno

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Does folding AK pre not seem ridiculously tight though
 
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baudib1

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I'm not some superstar online cash game player but I do play a ton of $1-$3 live and I can tell you that the limp-reraise from UTG from a tight player is AA so often (this is like standard play with AA UTG) that I'm going to fold QQ unless we have set-mining odds -- you are toast with AK here a huge percentage of the time. Just do yourself a favor and fold.
 
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jbbb

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If you´re going to fold a perfect flop, just fold pre. IMO everything up to the flop looks like UTG making a move. The 140 into 150 is really strange and screams strength. Anything I think such as a bluff or QQ would surely bet a little smaller in the event they have to fold to a reraise. Either way i´d be leaning towards not folding because the range that beats us is so small. Only AA basically and its pretty hard to narrow his range down to just that. Interesting thread though i like reading the thoughts of other people.. but ingame i couldnt find a fold.
 
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Gunner57

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Ben_ryno a big part of me is with you. I just dont know if I can bring myself to say that I would fold AK in position pre-flop on a limp min 3 bet with one other caller (and one left behind). Then hitting the flop top two pair top kicker and really can only be afraid of AA or KK.

Baudib1 you are right... this guy is showing incredible strength. however to fold at any point in this makes me feel like I am playing too scared.... but, evaluating his range and taking consideration that this is live vs online (still getting used to) I can see the argument for fold post flop and possibly pre-flop depending on Villan. when playing Live play I can see that his likely range is much stronger than online due to tighter 3 Bet range.
 
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