$200 NLHE Full Ring: AJ OOP, could have improved play, but not sure how?

Villain 1 is somewhat new to the table. I've seen him before and he is a regular in the poker room. His style thus far has been TAGish, not quite loose but far from nitty, and may be one of the only players at the table that is solid. Everyone else seems willing to limp in with almost anything and will usually call any reasonable raise preflop regardless of position or cards if they have already invested $2 in the pot.

Hero (~$140) in MP calls $2 with AcJd
Villain 1 (~$200) calls from CO $2
Villain 2 calls in small blind $2
Big Blind checks $2
Pot: $8
Flop: 9s10dJs
Villain 2 checks, Big Blind checks, Hero checks
Villain 1 bets $10
Villain 2 calls, Big Blind folds, Hero calls
Pot: $38
Turn: 2c
Villain 2 checks, Hero checks
Villain 1 bets $20
Villain 2 calls
Hero raises to $40
Villain 1 calls, Villain 2 folds
Pot: $138
River: 4d
Hero checks
Villain 1 bets $75
Hero calls
Villain says "Nice call, you got lucky. I had so many outs" and mucks.

Here's my thought process throughout the hand. I mix up my play with AJ (raise sometimes, limp others, depends on position and other factors); this time I just limped. I flop TPTK, but the board is dangerous and loaded with draws. I'm pretty sure I'm good at the moment but about a third of the deck kills me, so I call the $10. Turn is a brick. When Villain 1 bets $20 and Villain 2 calls, I min raise to define the hand a bit more. If either villain has the straight, he is putting the rest of his chips in when I check-raise. The fact that Villain 1 just calls tells me he does not have the straight. He also does not have a set or overpair, because from my experience, he raises preflop with any pair from good position, so this leaves the possibility of J10, J9, 10 9, QJ, KJ, any suited Ace, suited King, or suited Queen. His betting line seems to signal KJ, QJ, or suited Aces/Kings/or Queens, specifically A8s, K10s, K8s, Q10s.
Thoughts? I feel like I could have played this better but not sure how. I know my check-raise could have been larger, and I should work on my bad habit of NOT asking the dealer to turn the player's cards over when I make the call, but other than that....?

I would've bet on the flop to see where I'm at. A small bet of 4-6 and I guess the 2 villians make the call and you could have valuebet the turn/river (because they are most likely on a busted draw). I don't think you would have won as much with this strategy as you did, but if he had the straight/two pair you lose less.

Raise pre, don't open limp. Don't play 70 BBs deep. Bet the flop. Bet the turn, don't raise.

I didn't bet the flop because I didn't believe it would give me any information. Someone with a made straight is just as likely to slowplay call as somebody with two pair or top pair. A check-raise on the turn is way more definitive, IMO, and will almost certainly provoke a shove from a straight.

Raise pre, yes, you are right. Coincidentally, this was the first hand where I didn't raise or fold when first to act.

Mr Sandbag said:

I didn't bet the flop because I didn't believe it would give me any information. Someone with a made straight is just as likely to slowplay call as somebody with two pair or top pair. A check-raise on the turn is way more definitive, IMO, and will almost certainly provoke a shove from a straight.

Raise pre, yes, you are right. Coincidentally, this was the first hand where I didn't raise or fold when first to act.

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You might be true, but he could have had a straight and still slowplay it on the turn. If he had it, you would have lost 2 + 10 + 40 + 75 = 127.
If you bet the flop there is a chance that he reraises and you're gone for 2 + 6 = 8.
If he tries to slowplay you will continu on the turn for about 13 (half the pot: 8 + 18 = 26). And if you bet the river for about 30 you lost 2 + 6 +13 + 30 = 51.

That is just a huge difference and that is the point I try to explain.

I hate the check/minraise here. He flats and you're still blind as to whether he is drawing or whether he is ahead. I too prefer the lead bet on the flop. Realize it's not necessarily information you're looking for, given such a wet board ... it's also hand control.

Also, I also don't agree with "mixing it up" by sometimes raising, sometimes limping this hand in. A better way to mix it up is to open with more hand types from this position. The major problem with the limp in MP is a lot of the top hands can be eliminated from your range (generally) as who would want to see a 4-way pot with AA, KK, QQ, etc?

ElmarLCH said:

You might be true, but he could have had a straight and still slowplay it on the turn. If he had it, you would have lost 2 + 10 + 40 + 75 = 127.
If you bet the flop there is a chance that he reraises and you're gone for 2 + 6 = 8.
If he tries to slowplay you will continu on the turn for about 13 (half the pot: 8 + 18 = 26). And if you bet the river for about 30 you lost 2 + 6 +13 + 30 = 51.

That is just a huge difference and that is the point I try to explain.

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You are right. The only issue is he was on a bunch of draws, so he was just as likely to re-raise me with that as he was if he actually held a straight.

From my experience at $1/$2 NL, there are very few people who would slowplay the turn. It just doesn't happen. In fact, one of the dead giveaways for hands is usually sudden action on the turn, like a check-raise or shove. Also, he is a solid player, which gives me a unique opportunity for level-thinking at $1/$2. Since I am an unknown to him and most players that I've ever played with do NOT check-raise without the willingness to put all their chips in the middle, it is then safe to assume that he would believe I'd put all my chips in. Why would he NOT shove? Because he isn't that strong. He also doesn't have the set because he is preflop raising with any hand that'd give him a set. Two pair, maybe, but there are only three hands that give him two pair. He is most likely on top or middle pair with a draw(s).

Thinking back, the min raise was kinda weak. I should have raised larger. But from my experience at $1/$2, turn play defines a hand MUCH more than flop play.

The open-limp was also weak. Should have raised.

I am definitely reading and thinking about the advice. But for me, part of getting better is to defend my action until I'm proven wrong. I don't believe betting the flop really defines anything, and I also don't think "losing less money" is a reason to bet it. The only compelling reason I've read for flop-betting is for hand control.

Mr Sandbag said:

I didn't bet the flop because I didn't believe it would give me any information. Someone with a made straight is just as likely to slowplay call as somebody with two pair or top pair. A check-raise on the turn is way more definitive, IMO, and will almost certainly provoke a shove from a straight.

Raise pre, yes, you are right. Coincidentally, this was the first hand where I didn't raise or fold when first to act.

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Mr S: You seem to be confused or misinformed about why we bet. You don't bet for information, you bet for value (because worse hands will call, or to realize your equity) or as a bluff.

As a general rule, don't raise turns. Especially if everyone in your $1-$2 game is raising the turn with the nuts. Raise flops and raise rivers.

You don't open limp with AJo to "mix it up." Mixing it up does not mean you randomly play some hands suboptimally. In general don't open limp; if you insist on open-limping then at least do it with hands that benefit from seeing a cheap flop multiway. AJo is not a good hand multiway and it never flops anything except good top pair hands; i.e. you're not flopping pairs + draws or gutterball + flush draw with it. With 70 BBs and AJo, you're looking to raise, get HU or 3 ways, flop top pair and get it in.

As played, your hand is going to be best quite a bit but half the deck kills your hand. If you were deeper I'd say you could try to bet small to exercise pot control but as played you can just bet flop and get it in on the turn. You're not nearly deep enough to be making fishy minraises for info. If someone is going to bluff the river then he's probably just as likely to shove the turn with a draw and given stack sizes, you should probably still call.

baudib1 said:

Mr S: You seem to be confused or misinformed about why we bet. You don't bet for information, you bet for value (because worse hands will call, or to realize your equity) or as a bluff.

As a general rule, don't raise turns. Especially if everyone in your $1-$2 game is raising the turn with the nuts. Raise flops and raise rivers.

You don't open limp with AJo to "mix it up." Mixing it up does not mean you randomly play some hands suboptimally. In general don't open limp; if you insist on open-limping then at least do it with hands that benefit from seeing a cheap flop multiway. AJo is not a good hand multiway and it never flops anything except good top pair hands; i.e. you're not flopping pairs + draws or gutterball + flush draw with it. With 70 BBs and AJo, you're looking to raise, get HU or 3 ways, flop top pair and get it in.

As played, your hand is going to be best quite a bit but half the deck kills your hand. If you were deeper I'd say you could try to bet small to exercise pot control but as played you can just bet flop and get it in on the turn. You're not nearly deep enough to be making fishy minraises for info. If someone is going to bluff the river then he's probably just as likely to shove the turn with a draw and given stack sizes, you should probably still call.

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When would you raise the turn? Most 1/2 players love the move, so I've been using it to both read and play against them...

1/2 players are fish.

In general, if you've gotten into a situation where you are 70-100 BBs deep and feel the need to raise the turn, you probably did something wrong. Now that doesn't account for weirdly stupid play by 1/2 players, like someone who c/c flop and makes a 1/10th PSB donk on the turn as a blocker -- you can treat that as a check or if you can rep air/draws with big hands on various board textures.

If you raise the turn 100 BBs deep how do you intend to ever bluff rivers? Think about what kind of hands you're getting to the river with when you flat call if you are always raising big hands on the turn.


If you are playing well you will find that you almost never need to raise the turn unless you are very deep with someone who will stack off draws and marginal holdings.

Mr Sandbag said:

You are right. The only issue is ......... I've read for flop-betting is for hand control.

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I don't have much experience at the 1$/2$, so If you think that was the right play or you don't agree with my vision on it, just do it your own way.
I just looked at it from a general poker view and did not look at it as a specific 1/2 table. If what you say is true about the turn than I would have probably do the same as you did.

I think my view was the best play for a general poker game, but you have to adapt to the circumstances, that is what it is all about. Don't let my opinion change that!