$200 NLHE Full Ring: Aces vs ???

thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
$200 NL HE Full Ring: Aces vs ???

Before this hand started, I had $600 and UTG had about $650, the two MP players that saw the flop with us had a little over 1k each.

My read on this guy wasn't much, he hadn't done anything out of the ordinary yet and had gone from $200 to $600 by putting his chips in with the best hand so I figured he was a solid player.

I'm dealt AhAc on the button.

UTG raises $15
Two MP players call
I raise to $100
UTG calls
MP both call


Pot is $403
Flop comes 236 with two diamonds.
Checked to me, I make it $300
UTG calls
MP both fold

Pot is $1k
Turn is Kd
UTG shoves
I call all-in for $200

River is Th

I put him on kings, and thought he made his set the instant the K hit on the turn but was pot commited so called anyway.

I actually played this hand a month ago and knew I played it badly but didn't realise at the time how many mistakes I had made. See if you can point some of them out.

What do you do differently in this hand to what I did?
 
Last edited:
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
There's nothing really wrong. The reraise pre is good. On the flop, I just ship it with a slight overbet, since any bet commits us and we're never folding.
 
G

gns2003

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 23, 2008
Total posts
199
Chips
0
I suppose you could fault yourself for committing yourself to the pot on the flop without just shoving. Either a smaller bet which could leave you an out on the turn with a smaller pot, or the all-in shove on the flop to seal your committment and pick up a little more fold equity. I like staying in there and probably would have shoved. But a $150 - $200 bet on the flop would have had almost as much fold equity as your $300 bet did while leaving you not necessarily pot committed. Good luck out there.
 
R

RAFC24

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Total posts
180
Chips
0
Hi Pokerkid123,

I am still playing micro stakes and doing well there but I do study strategy and try to improve my game so take this feedback with a grain of salt or two....

If you put him on Kings and was certain he hit his set, I dont entirely understand your rational for calling his all-in. Yes you are pot commited as you say but if you put him on a hand pretty solidly as you did, why didnt you trust yourself and just save yourself the 200$?

Unless there is a long term math/profit relationship to your decision here that im not aware of?
 
PattyR

PattyR

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Total posts
7,111
Chips
0
im guessing that one had AK..one had QQ..and the other one had KK

i dont get why everyone called your $75 raise unless thats how they do it at $200NL...i struggle at .5/.10 NL lol
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
Hi Pokerkid123,

I am still playing micro stakes and doing well there but I do study strategy and try to improve my game so take this feedback with a grain of salt or two....

If you put him on Kings and was certain he hit his set, I dont entirely understand your rational for calling his all-in. Yes you are pot commited as you say but if you put him on a hand pretty solidly as you did, why didnt you trust yourself and just save yourself the 200$?

Unless there is a long term math/profit relationship to your decision here that im not aware of?

If villain TURNED OVER two Kings, yes we'd fold since we only have 6:1 on our call and we're over a 20:1 dog but his range is larger than that.

Like I said before the turn shouldn't even have existed though. Its a 3 bet pot with 400+ in it and we have 500 in our stack with the largest overpair. Auto shove.
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
RAFC, there's nothing I hate more than calling when I'm convinced I'm behind, but there was also the nagging possibility of QQ/JJ and once in a while some stupid hand pops up (this guy being relatively unknown to me I couldn't entirely rule out much). If I can be wrong 20% of the time here I have to call.

The flop call basically confirmed he had big pockets, but it's still only kings that beat me. It is possible that he's overplayed QQ/JJ and it's also quite possible he has aces also (which would give him the Ad and he'd be freerolling for all of my money).

PattyR, the bet would normally drive them off. It was a live game which is usually looser than online with pre-flop requirements and bet sizes but a $85 raise is huge and should scare off just about anything. I was quite horrified to see them call pre-flop.

I hindsight, I should have bet more pre-flop and taken a $45 pot because this was always going to escalate out of control if I didn't. I didn't pay attention to the pot I was likely to build or the stack sizes I was up against, I just thought "deep stacked rockets? Oh crap, I'll bet really, really big and see if one of them has something they don't want to fold". What I should have thought was that this guy had openned UTG for a big raise, his very small range is mostly calling/shoving here. If he calls (which is the worst possibility for me) then we have a $230 pot, with two guys holding good cards and extremely deep stacks and ridiculously good implied odds (no one at that table would have doubted that myself and UTG were likely to put our stacks in after this point). $85 more would be justifiable with a lot of suited connectors here, I think it's actually the premium hands I'm likely to make fold here but the drawing stuff is coming in. Keep in mind that these guys have 1k behind them and a big multiway pot is forming that they're getting priced into.

It's possible that UTG would have folded pre-flop but I don't think I could expect it. Once he calls it creates a nightmare situation of implied odds.

What I should have done is shove pre-flop, go heads up against UTG's monster hand (if he folds, then I still take down a $45 pot which I'd be happy taking without a fight) and get rid of the MP players.

Instead what I did was build a pot that had me very near committed before the flop even came out.

The flop hits and it's all rags, I do believe that the MP guys could show up with 66 because I have no doubt the only reason they called preflop was to draw out on us but I figured I'd take the risk because if they were set mining then that board is still about as safe as I could hope for. Having it checked to me I figured any bet into a pot that big would commit me and I couldn't make myself check with the flush draw out there (although I was again making the same mistake as pre-flop, any bet that I make is getting called/raised by most of UTG's range and the other guys are getting odds to draw). I bet, figuring we were going all the way with this one and the fact that I just didn't shove was me trying to get fancy or something, any bet will result in all of my chips going in but maybe if I don't shove then someone calls with something weaker... probably not, but a shove and a bet seemed to have the same effect in every other way so I chose the bet.

I'm stil unsure about the flop bet, I think that a shove or a bet or even a check are all dangerous here (the chances of getting called, check-raised or out drawn)... I think that's the cost of letting the pot size get out of control like that. My decisions were to commit all of my chips or check-fold and neither seemed to be a good option.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
What I should have done is shove pre-flop, go heads up against UTG's monster hand (if he folds, then I still take down a $45 pot which I'd be happy taking without a fight) and get rid of the MP players.

Instead what I did was build a pot that had me very near committed before the flop even came out.

The flop hits and it's all rags, I do believe that the MP guys could show up with 66 because I have no doubt the only reason they called preflop was to draw out on us but I figured I'd take the risk because if they were set mining then that board is still about as safe as I could hope for. Having it checked to me I figured any bet into a pot that big would commit me and I couldn't make myself check with the flush draw out there (although I was again making the same mistake as pre-flop, any bet that I make is getting called/raised by most of UTG's range and the other guys are getting odds to draw). I bet, figuring we were going all the way with this one and the fact that I just didn't shove was me trying to get fancy or something, any bet will result in all of my chips going in but maybe if I don't shove then someone calls with something weaker... probably not, but a shove and a bet seemed to have the same effect in every other way so I chose the bet.

I'm stil unsure about the flop bet, I think that a shove or a bet or even a check are all dangerous here (the chances of getting called, check-raised or out drawn)... I think that's the cost of letting the pot size get out of control like that. My decisions were to commit all of my chips or check-fold and neither seemed to be a good option.

SHOVE preflop? WHAT? With Aces? Why? Unless you have some sort of a read that people at this table severely overplay hands and will call with TT JJ QQ AK KK then how could you not try and get value out of your aces. A standard raise in this situation would be a pot sized raise, your raise if anything is a little big, but still fine. Thinking shoving is correct is blatant results oriented thinking. I guarantee had you won this hand, not only would you not have this line of thinking, but I don't think this post would even exist -- hence the problem with results oriented discussion and thinking as opposed to decision oriented.

On the flop....CHECK-FOLD?????? WHAT? How this is even in your mind is beyond me on this board. This is one of those spots where if you got set mined (or 54s gets there) then congrats. It's a 3 bet pot, your Stack to Pot Ratio is 1.25:1 and you have the largest overpair possible. Not stacking off here is a huge huge huge error. If stacks were even deeper or pot size was smaller, yes you can possibly get away at some point, but in a 3 bet pot with Aces and a stack to pot ratio of 1.25:1 anything besides getting all your coin in the middle can not be correct ever. Sure there are some boards against some opponents (i.e super tight player who only raises TT+ preflop and the flop comes KQJ and he shoves on you) where you could find folds, but they are few and very very far between
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
It's not results orientated thinking, it's the fact that having so many players see the flop was inevitable. Which would be okay but for the implied odds I was offering everyone.

Put it this way, I invest $100 pre-flop and 3 people are going to call unless someone makes a mistake. The exception to this is UTG raising me, but if this is what I'm hoping for then I should have just raised it myself.

Now the flop comes and anyone who hits anything has paid $100 to have me commit all of my chips. I've got my doubts whether this hand played a thousand times would turn a proffit for me. I'm either going to take down $300 when no one outdraws me or lose $600 when anyone outdraws me (vs 3 players, I'm going to get outdrawn quite a lot).

The reason I think I should shove pre-flop is that it avoids this bad situation and will get a call from UTG with a lesser hand quite often (his range is big pockets and AK, only KK/AA should call me but it's not uncommon to see someone make a mistake with QQ or AK).

The $45 already in the pot sweetens the deal.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
I've got my doubts whether this hand played a thousand times would turn a proffit for me. I'm either going to take down $300 when no one outdraws me or lose $600 when anyone outdraws me (vs 3 players, I'm going to get outdrawn quite a lot).

This just isn't correct.

This assumes that on a 6 high board no worse hands will call when you bet. Especially at 1/2 Stakes, smaller overpairs will be calling a ton, making you additional money.

Even against 3 opponents you are still 55%ish to win the hand (up or down a percent or two depending on their exact cards), and even a larger favorite to be good on the flop (45% of the time one hand will outdraw you BY THE TIME THE RIVER COMES but without seeing a turn and river, your hand will remain ahead much more often.

You're also mixing numbers up. You have $500 left after preflop action, so you have $500 more potentially to lose. The $100 is already in the pot and not yours anymore (the same way that you say you can win $300 when theres $400 in the pot)

On the flop you are faced with a pot of $400 and $500 in your stack. Lets say for simplicity sake you are outdrawn on the flop 1 in every 4 times leaving you with 3 wins and 1 loss. Even if we assume you are never called by a worse hand if you bet (completely inaccurate imo) you still win $400 x 3 = $1200 the times you win, and lose $500 the 1 time you loss for a net of $700 +EV for this situation. Factor in the times you're called by JJ etc (say one in every 3 wins) it's now over $1000 +EV

We could even limit you down to a 2:1 favorite, netting you 2 wins and 1 loss for every 3 (way too low, you are a bigger favorite than this on just the flop) AND assume that you are never called by inferior hands (again untrue). We STILL net $400x2=$800 the two wins and only lose $500 the one loss, netting us $300 +EV

Now factor in the fact that we can get paid by inferior hands and it's even more +EV

It's just math
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
It's math that you're doing post-flop to decide a pre-flop decision ;)

The average board is what I'm worried about. Once the 6 high board came out, the only reasonable option was to put my chips in and if I'm beat then I've got to go broke. Even if the board were higher, I'd probably still have to put my chips in and hope for the best.

My issue is with the pre-flop play so the board that came out is irrelivent.

Post-flop wasn't great either but didn't have much choice given the pot I'd created.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
It's math that you're doing post-flop to decide a pre-flop decision ;)

The average board is what I'm worried about. Once the 6 high board came out, the only reasonable option was to put my chips in and if I'm beat then I've got to go broke. Even if the board were higher, I'd probably still have to put my chips in and hope for the best.

My issue is with the pre-flop play so the board that came out is irrelivent.

Post-flop wasn't great either but didn't have much choice given the pot I'd created.

Right the previous post was directed at a post flop decision.

As far as pre I understand you want to avoid a postflop situation of negative implied odds (you are stacking pretty much always and opponents can play very well since they will obv continue 2pr+), but to shove all in is just losing waaaaaaaaaay too much value with aces unless you believe villains calling range is TT-AA , AK, in which case a shove is fine. I suspect this isn't the case though.

Just because the original raiser calls your reraise doesnt mean the other players will automatically also. You also don't know how many ways you will be called.

Even if we knew all this information (a raise to $100 would get 3 calls but a raise all in would get none and earn you the $45 pot) and we were stacking on pretty much any flop its STILL better to play it as you did. We're close to a 3:1 favorite to still be ahead after the flop so we're still winning 900 for every 300 we're losing, still +EV. Even if we lower it to 2:1 which is way too low, it's still breakeven and AGAIN this assumes we are never called with worse hands which simply isnt true and thus increases our EV more.
 
M

mrjohnson911

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Total posts
214
Chips
0
i think your preflop raise is maybe a bit to large.... around 85 would've been enough.... im really surprised about the overcalls though..

on that flop i believe you have to stack off... if someone hit a set..(unlikely imo) your beat but you have outs... I believe you will also get called by JJ+
 
Sysvr4

Sysvr4

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Total posts
277
Chips
0
It's not results orientated thinking, it's the fact that having so many players see the flop was inevitable. Which would be okay but for the implied odds I was offering everyone.

Put it this way, I invest $100 pre-flop and 3 people are going to call unless someone makes a mistake. The exception to this is UTG raising me, but if this is what I'm hoping for then I should have just raised it myself.

Sorry, but this is clearly, unquestionably results-oriented thinking.

You made a standard to slightly overlarge pre-flop reraise and should have shoved the flop. Shoving preflop at this level with no more information than "solid" guy raising up front is clearly a losing strategy. It's one I highly recommend at lower levels, however.

Moreover, YOU aren't offering huge implied to everyone. In fact, you've got 500 ish in front after your raise, so anyone set mining with a pocket pair hoping to felt you based on implied is making a bad call. That's what makes your PF raise good.

My advice, shove the flop next time and stop overthinking hands like this before it hurts your game.
 
T

TimmyOtool

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Total posts
95
Chips
0
OP

What are you talking about??? Ridiculous thinking.

I already think your $100 pump PF was large. You have some super loose players at your table if their cold calling $100 PF.

You don't want the dead $45 bucks! You want their STACKS! omg...

Sure you'll lose once in a while w/ AA but cmon man, AA is the most profitable hand in the game if you can't win w/ AA god help you.

As played, just shove the flop. Slight overbet, but I think its better then betting 1/2 pot (200) and then having a diamond peel on the turn and having someone shove infront of you.

Live game i'm assuming?
 
Top