RAFC, there's nothing I hate more than calling when I'm convinced I'm behind, but there was also the nagging possibility of QQ/JJ and once in a while some stupid hand pops up (this guy being relatively unknown to me I couldn't entirely rule out much). If I can be wrong 20% of the time here I have to call.
The flop call basically confirmed he had big pockets, but it's still only kings that beat me. It is possible that he's overplayed QQ/JJ and it's also quite possible he has aces also (which would give him the Ad and he'd be freerolling for all of my money).
PattyR, the bet would normally drive them off. It was a live game which is usually looser than online with pre-flop requirements and bet sizes but a $85 raise is huge and should scare off just about anything. I was quite horrified to see them call pre-flop.
I hindsight, I should have bet more pre-flop and taken a $45 pot because this was always going to escalate out of control if I didn't. I didn't pay attention to the pot I was likely to build or the stack sizes I was up against, I just thought "deep stacked rockets? Oh crap, I'll bet really, really big and see if one of them has something they don't want to fold". What I should have thought was that this guy had openned UTG for a big raise, his very small range is mostly calling/shoving here. If he calls (which is the worst possibility for me) then we have a $230 pot, with two guys holding good cards and extremely deep stacks and ridiculously good implied odds
(no one at that table would have doubted that myself and UTG were likely to put our stacks in after this point). $85 more would be justifiable with a lot of suited connectors here, I think it's actually the premium hands I'm likely to make fold here but the drawing stuff is coming in. Keep in mind that these guys have 1k behind them and a big multiway pot is forming that they're getting priced into.
It's possible that UTG would have folded pre-flop but I don't think I could expect it. Once he calls it creates a nightmare situation of implied odds.
What I should have done is shove pre-flop, go heads up against UTG's monster hand (if he folds, then I still take down a $45 pot which I'd be happy taking without a fight) and get rid of the MP players.
Instead what I did was build a pot that had me very near committed before the flop even came out.
The flop hits and it's all rags, I do believe that the MP guys could show up with 66 because I have no doubt the only reason they called preflop was to draw out on us but I figured I'd take the risk because if they were set mining then that board is still about as safe as I could hope for. Having it checked to me I figured any bet into a pot that big would commit me and I couldn't make myself check with the flush draw out there (although I was again making the same mistake as pre-flop, any bet that I make is getting called/raised by most of UTG's range and the other guys are getting odds to draw). I bet, figuring we were going all the way with this one and the fact that I just didn't shove was me trying to get fancy or something, any bet will result in all of my chips going in but maybe if I don't shove then someone calls with something weaker... probably not, but a shove and a bet seemed to have the same effect in every other way so I chose the bet.
I'm stil unsure about the flop bet, I think that a shove or a bet or even a check are all dangerous here (the chances of getting called, check-raised or out drawn)... I think that's the cost of letting the pot size get out of control like that. My decisions were to commit all of my chips or check-fold and neither seemed to be a good option.