$200 NLHE Full Ring: a couple hands from Live session

mvpnight

mvpnight

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1) Im on BTN with Kd3d , 6 limpers i opt to just limp and see a flop
Flop: Ad Kc 4d SB bets out 10$ , BB raises to 25$ everyone folds and i call
Turn: 2h SB checks and BB shoves for last 55$, action on us ....We?

2) UTG raises to 15$(tight player) and there is 1 loose call im MP with QsQc and raise to 40$ (i know its a very light 3bet but i wanted to see if UTG would 4bet). They both call
Flop: As Ts 3h and UTG shoves for last 60$ loose callers folds and actions on us....We?

Once again if anyone would like to inbox me to talk poker feel free! I would love to help out or just discuss poker.
 
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TimovieMan

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1) I get preflop, but why did you call the flop? Why pay 25$ getting only a little over 2:1 while drawing to 9 outs, and with SB still to act behind you? Fold the flop.
As played, easy fold. You do NOT have the odds to draw, so don't. If you call, you're the fish.

2) That's a tougher decision, but I still fold. I don't assume a tight player donks all-in into two people without an A. Given his tightness, he's got AQ/AK/AA or maybe TT. Fold.
 
Jillychemung

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1) Easy fold preflop - Easy fold on the flop given stack sizes

2) UTG has raised pre and now shoves on an A-hi flop, easy fold given tight description
 
Jillychemung

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1) Easy fold preflop

Not convinced.
With 6 limpers and likely 2 blinds coming in as well, this is a very cheap price to pay for a speculative hand.

This is the kind of hand that has mostly -EV associated with it. If you flop a K there is a very good chance you will be out-kicked by another Kx hand. Yeah the flush is the 2nd nut but yet again you will run into the nuts more than a minuscule amount. IMHO for anyone grinding live cash games, these hands should be easy folds since they carry so much negative.
 
c9h13no3

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Wtf, how is hand #1 a fold anywhere? We're drawing to the nuts multiway with extra outs. How can this be bad?
 
6

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1) I get preflop, but why did you call the flop? Why pay 25$ getting only a little over 2:1 while drawing to 9 outs, and with SB still to act behind you? Fold the flop.
As played, easy fold. You do NOT have the odds to draw, so don't. If you call, you're the fish.

Are you serious? Against a random Ax hand, look how many outs he has:
Any diamond = 9 outs
Any 3 = +2 outs
Any 5 = +3 outs
Any K = +2 outs
Total = 16 outs with 46 remaining cards = 35% equity
Calling $55 to win a pot that will be ~$190 has a 29% equity breakeven point.
We are above 29% equity and thus we should call.
The only argument against this is if you can put the villain specifically on 2 pairs or better, but I think that there are enough AQ/AJ hands in the villain's range to justify a call.

EDIT: Hand 2 is very tricky because you are blocking Qs, which means there are far less Qsxs hands that the villain could be semi-bluff shoving with. You're getting such a sick price on a call though (calling $60 to win a ~$240 pot has a 25% equity breakeven point), so it's a very close one. It's extremely close between calling and folding because the villain could be scare-shoving a hand like JJ (some people at 1/2 live do irrational things like this), so I wouldn't fault you for either decision. Ultimately, I'd probably tank fold this one, and I'd probably tank call if my QQ didn't contain the Queen of spades.
 
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TimovieMan

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The only argument against this is if you can put the villain specifically on 2 pairs or better, but I think that there are enough AQ/AJ hands in the villain's range to justify a call.
Are there? There was no raise preflop. If he's too passive to raise AQ/AJ in a multiway limped pot, then he's not raising the flop with just TPGK. I'd seriously discount our 5 K/3 outs.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if he has A4, K4 or 44.
 
mvpnight

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all of you have different reasons for calling and folding hand 1 which i agree with. i dont beileve at all that is an easy fold i think it is fairly close actually especially IF we think SB will also call the 55$ , if we think about this hand though there is 14$ in pre flop and another 75$ on the flop then 110$ on the turn( with the possibility of it being 165$ on turn if we add the SB) which adds up to 254$... if we take out the SB there is 200$ in the pot if i call, which is a 1:4 call roughly. As said earlier there are infact
Any diamond = 9 outs
Any 3 = +2 outs
Any 5 = +3 outs
Any K = +2 outs
16 outs which means i will hit more than 1/4..... I did in fact call and i missed but i do believe it was a +EV call.

On hand #2 i did fold and UTG showed AKo.
 
cardriverx

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yeah im fine with shoving flop hand 1
 
pescaofish

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1) Im on BTN with Kd3d , 6 limpers i opt to just limp and see a flop
Flop: Ad Kc 4d SB bets out 10$ , BB raises to 25$ everyone folds and i call
Turn: 2h SB checks and BB shoves for last 55$, action on us ....We?

2) UTG raises to 15$(tight player) and there is 1 loose call im MP with QsQc and raise to 40$ (i know its a very light 3bet but i wanted to see if UTG would 4bet). They both call
Flop: As Ts 3h and UTG shoves for last 60$ loose callers folds and actions on us....We?

1) Fold, limping was a bad sign.

2) "tigth player" UTG raised pre flop and then shoves: Fold of course!
 
Jillychemung

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Are there? There was no raise preflop. If he's too passive to raise AQ/AJ in a multiway limped pot, then he's not raising the flop with just TPGK. I'd seriously discount our 5 K/3 outs.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if he has A4, K4 or 44.

+1
 
Beanfacekilla

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Grunch.

We have no stack sizes. I have not read other replies.

1. Fold pre. As played fold flop. We are cold calling here, SB is still there. We are not getting the right price to call with our hand. We are gambling.

2. 3b bigger. No fancy play here. I would like to see you 3b to $60-$75. This gambler in MP needs to pay. What you've done is let them both in. As played, fold flop. What hands does he open shove that we beat? K-x of spades? It seems like he has a ton of Ax hands here.

I'm nitty though. Take it with a grain of salt.
 
Beanfacekilla

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1) Easy fold preflop - Easy fold on the flop given stack sizes

2) UTG has raised pre and now shoves on an A-hi flop, easy fold given tight description

+1

Not convinced.
With 6 limpers and likely 2 blinds coming in as well, this is a very cheap price to pay for a speculative hand.

This isn't a speculative hand, it's a piece of crap. We don't need to play loose like all the fish do to beat $1/$2. All we need to do is play quality cards, and value bet our opponents relentlessly.
 
Beanfacekilla

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yeah im fine with shoving flop hand 1



Ummm, no. I don't think we have much FE. We are getting called most likely, and in that case, we are gambling. Weeeeeeeeeeeee
 
6

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I think we all misread hand 1 (including myself). Basically, the important information is:
1) This is a limped pot. 6 players all called $2. No one raised preflop.
2) Hero is in the BB and simply checked. Hero did not VPIP here.

With that in mind, let's assume that the villain has specifically 2 pairs or better and that hitting a 3 on the river (to give us 2 pairs) isn't sufficient. That leaves us with only 13 outs, but then it only leaves 44 remaining cards (since we're assuming villain has a hand like A4 or 44), which means we have just slightly over 29% equity and this is practically a breakeven call.

In spots like these, I'm still calling, but definitely not loving it.
 
Beanfacekilla

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1) Im on BTN with Kd3d , 6 limpers i opt to just limp and see a flop
Flop: Ad Kc 4d SB bets out 10$ , BB raises to 25$ everyone folds and i call
Turn: 2h SB checks and BB shoves for last 55$, action on us ....We?

I think we all misread hand 1 (including myself). Basically, the important information is:
1) This is a limped pot. 6 players all called $2. No one raised preflop.
2) Hero is in the BB and simply checked. Hero did not VPIP here.


Huh? Did I miss something? H is BTN....
 
TimovieMan

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I think we all misread hand 1 (including myself). Basically, the important information is:
1) This is a limped pot. 6 players all called $2. No one raised preflop.
2) Hero is in the BB and simply checked. Hero did not VPIP here.
You may want to read that again. Hero specifically said he's the BTN, and SB and BB played postflop, so it's 9 limpers.
 
6

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Wow you're right... for some reason I read it as "I opt to just check and see a flop" and automatically assumed he was the BB, because that's a phrase I hear a lot from people who check their BB. I'm not used to players saying "I opt to just limp and see a flop" that my brain automatically read it incorrectly. If it was written in a more standard way like "I limped in with Kd3d on BTN" I wouldn't have made that mistake.
 
c9h13no3

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May I remind people that this is a 1/2 live game...

Also, limping behind a couple of limpers isn't a bad play. People automatically hate on limping with weaker hands because it cuts down on your #1 advantage (preflop hand selection). But against poor players who go too far with 1 pair hands, limping right along and seeing flops with a huge SPR can also allow you to exploit them.
 
Beanfacekilla

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May I remind people that this is a 1/2 live game...

Also, limping behind a couple of limpers isn't a bad play. People automatically hate on limping with weaker hands because it cuts down on your #1 advantage (preflop hand selection). But against poor players who go too far with 1 pair hands, limping right along and seeing flops with a huge SPR can also allow you to exploit them.

Indeed. It is $1/$2, live. This is exactly why we don't need to play janky hands for $2. It isn't necessary to beat the game.

If you are limping K-3s OTB in a MW spot like this, you are just like the rest of the jobbers at $1/$2. This is a garbage hand. At a table full of droolers, we don't need to be fancy. We don't need to play a wide range. That's what our opponents do, and we exploit that by playing good cards, and making them pay to play.

So how are we going to exploit them with K-3s? Please tell me? By limping in? By shoving and gambling on Ad-Kc-4d flops with FD+2nd pair? We don't need to just invite variance into our game.

Maybe, just maybe, we can play some BS like this when playing some knuckle dragger 500 BBs deep, and get paid. Even then, you can set mine, play SCs, and rape them with offensive overbets when we have the goods, without playing rags like this hand.

The game isn't tough. Stay off tilt. Play good cards. Value bet relentlessly. Bank roll management.
 
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1. put the the bb in all in on the flop and embrace variance (raise to commit him, you don't want to be playing against short stacks with one card to come).
2. fold, better bigger pre.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Indeed. It is $1/$2, live. This is exactly why we don't need to play janky hands for $2. It isn't necessary to beat the game.
This is a pretty telling post, because it illustrates just how much you don't get it.

You can play more hands against bad players because... they are bad. Against a good player, you want to tighten your range. Our goal isn't to "beat the game". Our goal is to make money, and in weak games you can make money limping behind with K3s. Our opponents are easy to control, they'll let us see cheap showdowns when we want, let us draw cheaply, and will be easy to get all their money in when we have a big hand.
 
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If you are folding this preflop live you are just wasting your time. This is why live will never die, even people who are reasonable are terrible at understanding how live works

Secondly where is the fold on this flop, granted I'd love to have some stack sizes
 
Beanfacekilla

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This is a pretty telling post, because it illustrates just how much you don't get it.

You can play more hands against bad players because... they are bad. Against a good player, you want to tighten your range. Our goal isn't to "beat the game". Our goal is to make money, and in weak games you can make money limping behind with K3s. Our opponents are easy to control, they'll let us see cheap showdowns when we want, let us draw cheaply, and will be easy to get all their money in when we have a big hand.



Meh. If you want to play postflop with them, and it's profitable for you, then by all means, proceed.

I just choose to play different than that. I will agree to disagree. I don't know everything. I never said I did.

If I play a spec hand, it is one that I can make a straight and a flush with (exception for A-Xs if spot is right). That's just me. Yes I probably could play these hands. I could navigate postflop I suppose. I just don't want to. I am in this conservative tight mode ATM. It's working really well for me at $1/$2, so that's what I've been doing for the time being.


But the flop, we rarely have the best hand, and no FE, and we are cold calling, so I hate calling or shipping flop (marginal)
 
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