$200 NLHE Full Ring: $200 stacks - KK UTG

$200 NL HE Full Ring: $200 stacks - KK UTG

The stakes were 1-3 NL with a live straddle to make it 1-6. I had 250 in front, SB had 120, and BB had about 190 to start the hand. I raised it to 18 UTG with KK. Small blind calls, Big blind makes it 40. Straddler folds.

For whatever reason, the thought "BEWARE OF ACES" was going off in my head, however the pot was now $80 and I was only facing a $20 raise. I had been playing relatively tight, raised UTG, and had not seen the re-raiser in many pots that night. I would say I was abuot 90% sure of aces, 10% chance of queens.

The ending of the hand is sick...so I will save that for now. My question is...If I was 90% sure of aces, was the call of $20 (about 4-1 to call) appropriate? I figured I would play my kings like any low pair and hope to flop a set, else fold. A set would almost guarentee his entire remaining 150 chips.

The flop ended up being K 8 3 Rainbow. The small blind pushed in his 80 and the big blind reraised all in for his 160. Of course I snap called with the current nuts. Sure enough AK for the SB and AA as I expected for the BB. The case ace caught the turn and I was drawing dead.

I got my money in good and caught a horrible beat, but should I have folded pre flop?

Ultrazord said:

I got my money in good and caught a horrible beat, but should I have folded pre flop?

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No, your implied odds are good, even if you're set mining you're ok. Did SB come along for the ride with AK? If so, life is really good on that flop (losing to a one outer is just a huge bad beat).

I wish I had an alarm like yours, though - when my KK get 3bet pf, I generally start fistpumping.

Welcome to Cardschat!

Wait let me get this straight. You are playing with just over 30 BB effective stacks and you are playing KK for set value? Yes you made a bad play, but it was not in the call. Just shove your chips in preflop. You are not 90% sure he has aces, you're being results oriented.

BUT if you are sure he has aces and are playing KK for set value against the one opponent, no you did not have odds. You need 11.7 and you are not getting that even if he stacks 100%. But if there's a shot of the SB coming in behind you then yes you have odds to set mine. However that is entirely irrelevant and sorry but you cannot be sure that someone has aces. Are you honestly telling me that a T52r flop he bets you fold? Seriously, just get the money in. If he has aces he has aces. You're 30 BBs deep, you should never even consider that there is any reason not to get as much money in preflop as you can with KK.

zachvac said:

Wait let me get this straight. You are playing with just over 30 BB effective stacks and you are playing KK for set value? Yes you made a bad play, but it was not in the call. Just shove your chips in preflop. You are not 90% sure he has aces, you're being results oriented.

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Actually, blinds were 1-3. Due to the straddle the original bet was 6. I had roughly 90x the BB, with the SB having 40x and the BB having 60x. I was in fact 90% sure. This guy was a rock and to repop an UTG raise out of position...90% sure aces, 10% queens.

zachvac said:

BUT if you are sure he has aces and are playing KK for set value against the one opponent, no you did not have odds. You need 11.7 and you are not getting that even if he stacks 100%. But if there's a shot of the SB coming in behind you then yes you have odds to set mine. However that is entirely irrelevant and sorry but you cannot be sure that someone has aces.

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SB was loose and I thought he was probably coming along. He in fact did come along, and shoved on the flop. And I was not 100% sure of aces, only 90% sure.

zachvac said:

Are you honestly telling me that a T52r flop he bets you fold? Seriously, just get the money in. If he has aces he has aces. You're 30 BBs deep, you should never even consider that there is any reason not to get as much money in preflop as you can with KK.

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Well if you assume I'm a terrible player, I'm sorry...I was 90 BB's deep, had a good read, and the SB for value too. My read was pretty spot on, later in the night the same guy raised and I repopped him with queens which he called. At this point I was 70/30 jacks or kings. The flop came down jack high and I threw the hand away face up, the guy flipped over jacks. Made a damn good fold. Reading low limit players isn't too difficult, I prefer playing lowball before the flop.

To slycbnew - thanks! I've been looking for a place to discuss poker, always have weird hands that I can't tell if it was bad play or bad beats and would like to discuss with good players! Hope this is it!

Ultrazord said:

Actually, blinds were 1-3. Due to the straddle the original bet was 6. I had roughly 90x the BB, with the SB having 40x and the BB having 60x. I was in fact 90% sure. This guy was a rock and to repop an UTG raise out of position...90% sure aces, 10% queens.

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Please explain to me how 1-3 with a 6 straddle is any different from a 1-3-6 game? The point is the game plays as if the BB is 6, thus you are effectively 30 BBs deep.

Ultrazord said:

SB was loose and I thought he was probably coming along. He in fact did come along, and shoved on the flop. And I was not 100% sure of aces, only 90% sure.

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Where did you get the 90 and 10%? He never has AK? Never JJ? What does he do with QQ in that spot if only 11% of the time he raises (because AA and QQ have the same number of combos yet somehow you know he's 9 times as likely to have AA here so the other 89% of the time he must either be folding or just calling with QQ).

Ultrazord said:

Well if you assume I'm a terrible player

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I never said this.

Ultrazord said:

I was 90 BB's deep

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I went over this earlier but with a straddle of 6 it is effectively 30 BBs deep.

Ultrazord said:

had a good read

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So you know your read was right, why'd you post this? To help you work out the arithmetic? To confirm what a great player you are for being able to put him on AA exactly 90% of the time and correctly set mine? The fact is you don't know you made a good read, you think you made a good read, and I personally disagree. I don't care who it was but I do not believe anyone with 30 BB effective stacks ever has AA 90% of the time.

Ultrazord said:

and the SB for value too. My read was pretty spot on, later in the night the same guy raised and I repopped him with queens which he called. At this point I was 70/30 jacks or kings. The flop came down jack high and I threw the hand away face up, the guy flipped over jacks. Made a damn good fold.

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lol sorry but you've got a bit to learn. You seem to be pulling numbers out of your ass and when they have the hand the one time you decide you're amazing.

Ultrazord said:

Reading low limit players isn't too difficult

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On the contrary, from my experience 1/2 and 2/5 (assume that's what you mean by low limit since we're discussing live) players do some crazy shit. I've seen someone shove 2Ts for 100 BBs preflop and hands like T9 call shoves. Of course I didn't have them pegged as a nit like you do, but being able to place someone on exactly 90% AA and 10% QQ and never anything else is simply not possible without them showing you their hand.

Ultrazord said:

I prefer playing lowball before the flop.

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lol, so when you have what rates to be the best hand, you choose to only call it and let any Ax hand draw out on you? You're the best.

Ultrazord said:

To slycbnew - thanks! I've been looking for a place to discuss poker, always have weird hands that I can't tell if it was bad play or bad beats and would like to discuss with good players! Hope this is it!

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lol no you're not, you're looking for people to praise you about how great your reads are and how you can set mine with KK. What was your question if this is not the case? Were you really asking people to do the arithmetic for you? Because if so get your own calculator. For implied odds to flop a set you need on average 11.7:1. Check if you're getting that and if it is you have odds. I already said if you know the guy has AA there then yes set mining is good. But when you completely butcher the hand and then post in "hand analysis", I'm going to give my analysis.

I'm not trying to be a dick and I have nothing against you, but unless he shows you AA, calling KK this shallow with the intention to set mine is just plain bad. If you really want to discuss strategy and get better you may enjoy this site, but if you simply want to post "hand analysis" posts where we are not allowed to question your read and thus the only thing to discuss is arithmetic, I doubt you'll be around here long.

zachvac has a big e-penis imo

I think you're being a bit harsh. He's in position, he's got a read on aces, if he's right about that he's still getting the odds to set mine. I don't see the huge mistake in taking a flop and re-assessing from there instead of reshoving preflop.

Another reraise preflop probably gets rid of the hands he wants to call him (JJ,AK), although in this situation it sounds like the SB probably still would have come along with AK. Which leaves the other guy sitting with QQ or AA, more likely AA given the read on his play for the first part of the night.

There's no point observing someone's play and then ignoring the read when the opportunity arises and going with the numbers anyway. If he hadn't been re-popping his hands like JJ,QQ, and a lot of really tight players won't, then isn't it more likely he does have AA when he re-pops?

zachvac said:

lol no you're not, you're looking for people to praise you about how great your reads are and how you can set mine with KK. What was your question if this is not the case? Were you really asking people to do the arithmetic for you? Because if so get your own calculator. For implied odds to flop a set you need on average 11.7:1. Check if you're getting that and if it is you have odds. I already said if you know the guy has AA there then yes set mining is good. But when you completely butcher the hand and then post in "hand analysis", I'm going to give my analysis.

I'm not trying to be a dick and I have nothing against you, but unless he shows you AA, calling KK this shallow with the intention to set mine is just plain bad. If you really want to discuss strategy and get better you may enjoy this site, but if you simply want to post "hand analysis" posts where we are not allowed to question your read and thus the only thing to discuss is arithmetic, I doubt you'll be around here long.

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The question is should I have folded pre-flop, thinking there was a high chance my opponent had aces. Clearly you think folding is insane and a shove is appropriate regardless of a read. Thank you for your opinion.

I don't mind taking the bad beat on the flop because shit happens, I worry about making bad decisions. I can see both sides in my mind, so I wanted others opinions. I like to think I'm decent, I just can't dodge bullets pre-flop yet.

Ultrazord said:

The question is should I have folded pre-flop, thinking there was a high chance my opponent had aces. Clearly you think folding is insane and a shove is appropriate regardless of a read. Thank you for your opinion.

I don't mind taking the bad beat on the flop because shit happens, I worry about making bad decisions. I can see both sides in my mind, so I wanted others opinions. I like to think I'm decent, I just can't dodge bullets pre-flop yet.

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you can NEVER justify folding KK preflop with 30 BB effective stacks (not even with 90 BB stacks, but w/e), no matter how strong your "read". unless the guy shows your his two cards and they're both aces, you just can't fold. shove and be happy

vanquish said:

you can NEVER justify folding KK preflop with 30 BB effective stacks (not even with 90 BB stacks, but w/e), no matter how strong your "read". unless the guy shows your his two cards and they're both aces, you just can't fold. shove and be happy

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^ this.

Was the straddle on every hand, or just this one? If it's on every hand then Zach's right, you really can't consider yourself to be 90BB deep ($250 in a $1-3 game is only 83BB deep BTW, but anywho...). If it was just this hand or only occasionally then maybe you can.

Exactly what you're playing behind is irrelevant in this hand though, because the other two players are shorter. Ignoring the straddle, they're only 63 and 40BB deep respectively. With the straddle, they're even less. Those are the amounts you're playing for, not 90BB, and for those amounts Van is right: you've got to have the big blind show you his cards to fold.

Otherwise, just shove preflop. Sometimes you'll run into aces, but a much bigger chunk of the time you'll get called by worse or just take down the pot.

Ultrazord said:

The question is should I have folded pre-flop, thinking there was a high chance my opponent had aces. Clearly you think folding is insane and a shove is appropriate regardless of a read. Thank you for your opinion.

I don't mind taking the bad beat on the flop because shit happens, I worry about making bad decisions. I can see both sides in my mind, so I wanted others opinions. I like to think I'm decent, I just can't dodge bullets pre-flop yet.

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You're never folding preflop.. simple. Don't worry about that. I don't think anyone in the world attempts to dodge bullets preflop with KK. It aint gonna happen.

That would be -EV if you start folding KK preflop. Sometimes you'll run into Aces sure, but every other hand that makes similar preflop moves you're ahead of, so you can't fold.

Amount of BBs doesnt even matter here. Whether you're playing for 30BB or 90BB its bad to not get KK aipf, especially at live poker where people are especially terrible.

zachvac said:

Wait let me get this straight. You are playing with just over 30 BB effective stacks and you are playing KK for set value? Yes you made a bad play, but it was not in the call. Just shove your chips in preflop. You are not 90% sure he has aces, you're being results oriented.

BUT if you are sure he has aces and are playing KK for set value against the one opponent, no you did not have odds. You need 11.7 and you are not getting that even if he stacks 100%. But if there's a shot of the SB coming in behind you then yes you have odds to set mine. However that is entirely irrelevant and sorry but you cannot be sure that someone has aces. Are you honestly telling me that a T52r flop he bets you fold? Seriously, just get the money in. If he has aces he has aces. You're 30 BBs deep, you should never even consider that there is any reason not to get as much money in preflop as you can with KK.

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Curious, where did you hear the 11.7-1 rule? People's odds of flopping a set is right around 8-1, does that include reverse implied odds then? Cause if so, I might have given a slightly wrong advice in another thread, lol

EDIT: lol forget it, I just messed around with google and I'm now pretty sure you were talking about percentage and not ratio, my mistake

No I'm talking about 11.7 to 1. This takes into account the fact that villain will often make a better hand than our set.

So you havent seen villian in many pots so he automatically has aces? How long were you playing? Live games are like 35 hands/hour I believe so that means on average he will get dealt aces once every 8 hours. Does he re-raise once every 8 hours? You have the thousands of hours you would need to know this against him? Not even counting you are 20 BB effective stacks here this is just insane.

FWIW these are many very good players that are commenting on this hand and you could learn a lot from them if you leave the ego at the door.

widowmaker89 said:

So you havent seen villian in many pots so he automatically has aces? How long were you playing? Live games are like 35 hands/hour I believe so that means on average he will get dealt aces once every 8 hours. Does he re-raise once every 8 hours? You have the thousands of hours you would need to know this against him? Not even counting you are 20 BB effective stacks here this is just insane.

FWIW these are many very good players that are commenting on this hand and you could learn a lot from them if you leave the ego at the door.

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I've played at the paticular casino a few weeks 3-4 days a week for over a month. You see 3 bets VERY rarely without a huge pair...and I think this was the first time I've ever seen a blind repop an UTG raise. This paticular player had been at the table 3-4 hours and I hadn't seen him even raise more then once or twice, never a repop. Idk, it was REALLY fishy.

I suppose I have a slight ego, but I was honestly looking for outside advice and I thank all the people who have replied, it has been very helpful. I can tell the players here are great and enjoy the discussion. Live games I tend to play more psych and online I use more math, I suppose I need to use more math live for a better balance.

Ultrazord said:

I've played at the paticular casino a few weeks 3-4 days a week for over a month. You see 3 bets VERY rarely without a huge pair...and I think this was the first time I've ever seen a blind repop an UTG raise. This paticular player had been at the table 3-4 hours and I hadn't seen him even raise more then once or twice, never a repop. Idk, it was REALLY fishy.

I suppose I have a slight ego, but I was honestly looking for outside advice and I thank all the people who have replied, it has been very helpful. I can tell the players here are great and enjoy the discussion. Live games I tend to play more psych and online I use more math, I suppose I need to use more math live for a better balance.

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it sounds kind of like ur trying to justify an action given the results. you didn't know he had AA, and your read probably wasn't "90% AA, 10% QQ" when you were making your play, that's prob what it just seems like now

no you cant fold kings there for 20 more u just got super coolered its happened to all of us. if it was a much bigger raise and u sure about then fold is ok but dont get into a habit of ever time u have kings that someone else has aces or u will play scared and let junk hands beat u