$200 NLHE Full Ring: $200 NLHE Full Ring: I'm OOP and flop a boat, but get shoved on on the river

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Stixmagill

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$200 NLHE Full Ring: $200 NLHE Full Ring: I'm OOP and flop a boat, but get shoved on on the river

Full ring at a card room, playing $1/$2 with a $5 rock (UTG and on button, but the rock was not in play on this hand), game has been running for about two orbits, stacks were 20bb to 150bb. The players are 3 young guns, 3 retired older bad regs, 3 solid/TAG middle aged regs (including Hero).

Hero is in SB, 100bb stack, with TT. A middle position player limps, another limps behind, hijack makes it $10 (5bb), button calls. Pot is now $27. Hero calls, BB folds, and the 2 limpers call. 5 to the flop. Pot is now $52

Flop comes 222. Hero leads out for $20. Folds to button Villain (has Hero covered), who calls. Pot is now $92. Effective stacks are now $170.

Turn card is 7. Hero bets out $45. Villain hesitates for a 5 to 10 seconds and declares all-in.

Hero has $125 back, pot is now $307.

Note: I know the Villain. He is a good player I've played with occasionally for many years. He knows me and has seen me mix it up, but also knows that I will pick spots carefully, play position and that I ahave a firm grasp of pot odds, implied odds, SPR, balance, etc.

So I ask you, call or fold, and why?

After some input, I'll post the results.

Thank you,

Stix
 
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AlexTheOwl

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What do we know about HiJack?

If villain is an actual good player (sometimes at $1 / $2 live, not being completely incompetent counts as "good") I would expect him to raise with JJ+, unless HiJack is a nit.
Villain should know that many players in these games are happy to call 5BB raises with nearly any cards that they would limp with, and should want to isolate.

You have bet twice OOP, and you say villain respects you. But he still raises. We are giving the villain credit for being a good player, so he should know that a bluff is not likely to be very effective here. You definitely look like you have a hand, and he is giving you great pot odds.

If he has quads, he should call your turn bet. Again, we give villain credit as a good player. You look like you are in a betting mood, so maybe you will bet the river. If so, he can ensure that he has won at least one additional bet from you before he shoves.

From the villain's point of view, you look like you have something in the range of 33-TT in your hand. You would have 3-Bet pre-flop if you had something higher. If he has a hand like 55-TT, he's not ever folding, considering the size of the pot and his remaining effective stack. So he had might as well shove.

Call.
 
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iAmBadAtPoker

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Villain can be raising with any pair 33-AA and maybe A2 which would be 83 combos since only 40 combos of JJ-AA/A2 beat you and 43 combos of 33-TT lose or chop with you i think its a good call.
 
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iAmBadAtPoker

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Oh my mistake i forgot to mention the 7 on the turn making the 3 possible combos of pocket 7s able to beat you meaning 43 hands beat you and 40 do not but i would still just go ahead and call considering you already have money invested in the pot,you have a boat, and villain might be trying to bluff with AK or something
 
Bozovicdj

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Tough one..
If he has 2 in his hand, he is most likely to just call that turn.

Now, thinking from villain's perspective, what do you have?
Since villain probably doesn't have that 2, it is likely that you have it. You were on the small blind, had greatest odds to call to see the flop, so any suited 2, A2 and 23 is within your range as well as pocket pairs 33 to maybe even JJ.

If you say he knows you well, I will guess that means he knows that you don't raise flops out of position against 4 opponents, meaning, he knows you have something.
Him raising, must mean he can beat most of your range (except 2 or 77) which is why I would put him on JJ+

Even with all that said, statistically you are getting good odds for calling, so in long terms it might be a winning play to call.
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Now, thinking from villain's perspective, what do you have?
Since villain probably doesn't have that 2, it is likely that you have it.

A2 and 23 are four combinations each, so 8 combinations total. 33-66 and 88-JJ are 8 hands with 6 combinations each, 48 combinations total. 77 has 3 combinations. It is much more likely from the villain's perspective that hero has 33-JJ than that the hero has a 2.

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/mathematics/hand-combinations/

Also, if the hero has a 2, why is he donk betting on this flop?
 
Bozovicdj

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Exactly my point:

"Him raising, must mean he can beat most of your range (except 2 or 77) which is why I would put him on JJ+"

I am pretty sure, it is clear that personally, would fold here :)
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Exactly my point:

"Him raising, must mean he can beat most of your range (except 2 or 77) which is why I would put him on JJ+"

I am pretty sure, it is clear that personally, would fold here :)

You don't think JJ+ would 3-bet pre-flop from the button, with three people in the pot already?
 
Bozovicdj

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You don't think JJ+ would 3-bet pre-flop from the button, with three people in the pot already?

I would 3-bet, but maybe villain wants to dumb play it slow...
But those only make sense, considering call on the flop and all in on the turn, besides pocket 77.

Don't you think that villain with 55-TT (77 not included), would just call down the river, rather then going all in on the turn? In villain's shoes, think of the cards that can call him and are losing against him? Too much of a stretch to go all in with something like 99 and hoping opponent has 88 instead of TT...

I would like to add, that villain bluffing here doesn't make sense after hero bets both the flop and the turn.

If I had to think of a specific hand, would put him on AA, KK or 77
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Don't you think that villain with 55-TT (77 not included), would just call down the river, rather then going all in on the turn? In villain's shoes, think of the cards that can call him and are losing against him? Too much of a stretch to go all in with something like 99 and hoping opponent has 88 instead of TT...

If villain has 88-TT, villain should think that he is probably ahead, isn't ever going to fold, and might get a call from a weaker hand.

If he has a lower pair, maybe he thinks he has some fold equity against hero. That thought would be correct, since hero apparently found this to be a difficult decision, and some players here are advocating a fold.
 
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Stixmagill

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To touch on some points brought up...

The initial raiser is a young gun and later admitted he was attempting a steal with trash. I knew he was loose and could have anything from 79 off to AA.

The caller on the button would have 3-bet preflop with QQ+, AK, and probably 1/2 the time with JJ. So when he calls preflop, I put his range at suited connectors or one-gappers 78+, any two broadway, Suites Aces with 8+, or pairs 44-JJ. Fairly wide, but he is on the button and is very positionally aware. Clearly I block combos with T.

When I donk bet the flop, it was a small value bet but with expectations of information. I didn't want to invest too much just to have the original raiser shove on me. When only the button called, I was confident (rightfully so at the moment). I could not change the range to now include a deuce or QQ+, so I thought he would have 44+ and looking to get showdown value. I was ahead of the range I had assigned with the exception of a small chance he had the only combo of TT (chop) or he had JJ which I think would have re-raised on the flop.
I think he would put me on similar preflop ranges and may have been floating to see if I would check the turn with AK or one of the other hands he is ahead of. I was getting much better odds to call preflop than he got, so I could possibly have a wider range even out of position.

Unfortunately, he held two sevens, so the turned seven made him 7s full of 2s.

I did make the crying call, mostly for pot odds, but partly for table image. And I still had 3 outs (one deuce and two tens) but no help came.

I don't feel bad about it, but I do wonder about the flop bet, the turn bet size and the call on the turn raise.
Could I check-raise the flop? Not if the original raiser had bet, his range is not capped. Also the two limpers would have a chance at leading out with a bet I may not be able to call or raise. I wanted to see where I was at. A check raise would be less capped than a check raise though. A deuce would check call or check raise.
The turn bet, I could have shoved, but I thought I could get 3 streets of value from worse hands like 9s, 8s, 6s, 5s, 4s.
When the raise came, the only hand I was afraid of was 77. I thought there was a chance he was committed with a worse hand and wanted fold equity as well. Wishful thinking, but again, pot odds.

Thank you for your input. I'd love more comments now that I have been able to give more information.
 
liuouhgkres

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OP, I don't understand, leading for information doesn't make sense, how about checking for information? It is a bad value bet in my opinion, because now all cards that could bluff would just fold, because your donk-bet looks very strong.
 
Bozovicdj

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Well, holding pocket TT in that position, I guess there is merit in both checking that flop and betting, probably not the best bet sizing on the flop, should have been bigger if u already decided to bet (round 35-40$ making floaters gamble if they want to see an ace, king or so)

As I told in the earlier post, I placed the villain on AA, KK or 77. AND YES (shout out to alextheowl) it doesn't make much sense to just call with premium hands preflop, still those 3 I just named, are the only that make sense raising the turn.

In this very spot, given that your villain is "good player" by your standards, I probably would have folded, as I don't see him shoving with anything worse than TT. :)
 
TheBigFinn

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Preflop it doesn't look as if any one has big pairs. limper and then callers to a small raise. For starters you didn't really flop a boat you are trying to decide if your pair is bigger than Villain's. (it is very unlikely she has the case 2, IMHO A2 suited maybe??) I think AA, KK, QQ would have all bet pre-flop. You are losing to JJ and 77 so the question is would 99, 88, 66 re-raise all in? IMHO, no. They would try and get to show down, so it is either a buff or a better pair. My mind says fold, but I'm not sure I am emotionally mature enough to fold in game.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Preflop fine.

On the flop I hate the donk bet here. You are giving information about your hand, and you really don't get any info as a byproduct (like you hoped). The only thing we know is V can't really have QQ+ here.


However..... in general, people at these stakes aren't making big bluffs, and it is unlikely he is moving in with worse.

It is a tough spot indeed. Just knowing what I know about the 1/2 player field, I fold, and don't think about the hand again.


I would like to see you check flop here, give the PFR a chance to bluff, and get reads on others in the process hopefully.


I don't think it's very likely this guy hit a 7, with say A-7s or something, and moves in. He also probably doesn't move in with 8-8 or 9-9 IMO. I think it should be pretty clear to any thinking player about where hero is here. You kind of turned your hand face up IMO. Don't donk bet like this, I think it's really counterproductive.


That's how I would think in real time. I would just ask myself "would he do this with 7x, 8-8, 9-9?" It doesn't matter really if we can't put him on exact hand here. I think we have enough info to make a decision, because I don't feel like we best much except 8-8 or 9-9.
 
Sil3ntness

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I don't like the flop lead. As played on the turn, I feel it is a definite fold on turn after the raise. I wouldn't lead too often, unless you have a balanced flop leading range.
 
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AlexTheOwl

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I agree with what has been said about the flop bet.

Hero has $125 back, pot is now $307.

125 / (307+125) = you need to win 29% of the time to make the call profitable. It didn't work out, but I still like the crying call here.
 
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Stixmagill

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Thanks for the input, After thinking it through...

Thank you all for the input.

My biggest mistake was not paying enough attention to the action preflop.

I think the best play would have been to squeeze around 40 to 50. With my tight image and raising OOP, I would take down the pot a large percentage of the time. If original raiser 4 bets, I could let it go. If I get called, it caps their range and I could shove on the river if I flop overpair as my range is uncapped and SPR is low enough.

As played with calling preflop, check-raising the flop would leave me on a broader range. The small donk bet was bad.

Thanks again.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Thank you all for the input.

My biggest mistake was not paying enough attention to the action preflop.

I think the best play would have been to squeeze around 40 to 50. With my tight image and raising OOP, I would take down the pot a large percentage of the time. If original raiser 4 bets, I could let it go. If I get called, it caps their range and I could shove on the river if I flop overpair as my range is uncapped and SPR is low enough.

As played with calling preflop, check-raising the flop would leave me on a broader range. The small donk bet was bad.

Thanks again.

All this thinking is kinda bad man. This line of thought is extremely flawed, and extremely results oriented.


We don't want to be squeezing and 3b OOP with 10-10. The reasons why? 10-10 doesn't flop well often. It's terrible if we get 4b, then we have to fold. Live players never fold anyways, then we play huge pot OOP, with a hand that doesn't flop well. The only reason you are saying this is because you think you would have won the hand. If you continue to think in this manner, you will play terrible fear based poker like many of the other fish at 1/2 who only want to win pots, not win money.


Next you talk about check raising the flop? Dude no. No. No. That way, you fold out all hands that you are beating, but you get called only by an even smaller range. 7-7 probably folds to c/r, and why would we want 7-7 to fold? He has 2 outs.


All the thoughts you are having now are all in this fishy school of thought, how you could have won the pot. You can't win every hand. Stop thinking of terrible ways to play a hand so you can win it. This is so results oriented man. This is exactly the thing you need to stop doing if you want to get better at poker.


As played you just fold the turn to shove. That's it. Next hand.

But, call pre. Check call flop. Check call/decide on turn. Because you played hand so goofy, we don't even know how action would have gone, had you played the hand correctly. Checking flop is probably ideal here man. And maybe you just lose some $$$, but that's not the point.

When we take super aggro lines, we fold out all but monsters usually. When we take a more passive approach out of position, people will still continue with a much wider range, a range we are beating. We want to earn money, not fold everyone out and just win the pot. If you continue to think the way you do, you won't ever crush 1/2, I promise you.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Here's a hand I just played last night. I bet this guy in SB had a similar thought process to you. He wanted to win the pot.

I posted this hand in my cash game thread.

Here it is. From live 1/2 last night.





We are BTN, we straddle for $5. About 5 limpers, we look at QQ.

We raise to $45, SB ships for almost exactly $200.

Folds to us, we snap.


SB has 10-10, we hold. Scoop.



He thought he had best hand. He shipped. He got called by better. He got stacked.
 
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Clysse

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Here's a hand I just played last night. I bet this guy in SB had a similar thought process to you. He wanted to win the pot.

I posted this hand in my cash game thread.

Here it is. From live 1/2 last night.





We are BTN, we straddle for $5. About 5 limpers, we look at QQ.

We raise to $45, SB ships for almost exactly $200.

Folds to us, we snap.


SB has 10-10, we hold. Scoop.



He thought he had best hand. He shipped. He got called by better. He got stacked.

Uh 3betting or squeezing a limped pot with pocket 10s preflop is not results oriented or terrible play. It can be bad depending on your read of your opponents limping or PFR range but its pretty standard to make this move with this hand.

If he 3bet pre, then check calls down, he narrows his opponents range far more. JJ QQ+ 4bets, middle pocket pairs call, and AQ and below likely wont 4bet (player dependent but almost always the case)
 
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acemenow

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My initial instinct just from reading the OP was to fold here. Stating you knew the villain makes this an easy fold for me given your description of the relationship you have with the person.

Interesting post and enjoyed reading peoples comments. There are a number of comments above that make me realize I need to study a lot more! Thanks for sharing this!
 
Beanfacekilla

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Uh 3betting or squeezing a limped pot with pocket 10s preflop is not results oriented or terrible play. It can be bad depending on your read of your opponents limping or PFR range but its pretty standard to make this move with this hand.

If he 3bet pre, then check calls down, he narrows his opponents range far more. JJ QQ+ 4bets, middle pocket pairs call, and AQ and below likely wont 4bet (player dependent but almost always the case)

What worse hand would I call him with? What AK? That's like the only thing he beats. He either has to call 25% of stack and play big pot OOP, or he has to shove, and get snapped off and be a 4 to 1 dog.


I wouldn't shove 10-10 there. I learned that years ago brah.

Edit: And if he us doing it as a bluff (squeeze), what better hand am I folding?

2nd edit: He clearly should just open his hand IMO. He is first up in the SB, he called, and started a call train. I would have raised his hand.
 
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Clysse

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What worse hand would I call him with? What AK? That's like the only thing he beats. He either has to call 25% of stack and play big pot OOP, or he has to shove, and get snapped off and be a 4 to 1 dog.


I wouldn't shove 10-10 there. I learned that years ago brah.

Edit: And if he us doing it as a bluff (squeeze), what better hand am I folding?

2nd edit: He clearly should just open his hand IMO. He is first up in the SB, he called, and started a call train. I would have raised his hand.

Limping there is perfectly reasonable and acceptable play but so is 3betting. Why would he need to shove 100BB into a pot thats like 13BB. If he 3bets, there are only a few hands that have him completely crushed, and a majority of them will not want to call to a 3bet (again player dependent). Therefore if the action comes 3bet and the hijack or button 4bets or jams, you can comfortably fold while losing less had you check called all streets. The reason i dont like limping pre is because you will be crushed by hands like QJ or KJ alot that would fold pre, and you allow hands like AJ to see the flop for free.
 
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