$200 NLHE Full Ring: $200 NL live, UTG with JJ

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Interesting hand from last night what would you do:

Hero: UTG with around $475 with JJ.

Limps to hero, hero bets $8. (table was pretty small pre flop raising lots of folding )

Villain: UTG +2 calls (has about $300 behind him), CO and BB call. UTG +2 has been a bit aggressive in most hands.


Flops comes Jh10c4s.

Hero flops set of Jacks, checks to UTG+2 who instantly bets $15 into about a $32 pot. CO and BB both fold.

Hero re-raises to $45. Villain thinks for a minute and calls.

Turn is 8d.

Hero bets $75.

Villain thinks , reaches for rest of stack, than pauses and flat calls.

River is Ks.

So board at river is Jh10c4s8dKs.

Hero bets $75...villain shoves all in $174 total.

**I'm thinking what he calls pre flop with and what he might be repping/chasing on board. He has been caught before stacking off with stone cold bluffs as well.**

Hero?
 
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Based on your notes only, I'm putting him on 2 pr like KJ. Call...if he chased you down, he chased you down.
 
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Based on your notes only, I'm putting him on 2 pr like KJ. Call...if he chased you down, he chased you down.

Thanks. This was my suspicion as well. I'll wait to post spoiler in case others have any thoughts on this hand.
 
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AJ, KJ, or maybe even QJ I guess would be what you could put him on assuming he's playing a reasonable range..if he's aggressive it'd be hard to put him on better with that pre-flop action. With that run-out, and your description of the villain I'd call absolutely. If he hit a straight or was slow-playing Kings there's not much you can do.
 
Aces2w1n

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Villain hsd AQs... his reaching for the stack is a sign of drawing looking to get there cheap.. wants to see how you react.

Hits the straight on river heh
 
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AJ, KJ, or maybe even QJ I guess would be what you could put him on assuming he's playing a reasonable range..if he's aggressive it'd be hard to put him on better with that pre-flop action. With that run-out, and your description of the villain I'd call absolutely. If he hit a straight or was slow-playing Kings there's not much you can do.

Yeah I definitely initially put him on something like you mentioned. Made sense. Possibly a set of 10s or 4s as well. My rep at this card room is generally pretty tight so even though he's aggressive and has been caught bluffing, I don't think he'd take a bluff 3 barrels against me on this board, maybe a flushed board he'd try. I did indeed call. He had none of the above hands you or I considered lol.

Villain hsd AQs... his reaching for the stack is a sign of drawing looking to get there cheap.. wants to see how you react.

Hits the straight on river heh

I ran AQ through my head and through the streets over and over, I even recall saying out loud "AQ, you don't have AQ after he shoved , that's the only thing you reasonably have here and I'm not buying it." There's little logic that he goes three streets with effectively A high on a board im betting every street on. I considered KJ. I do agree his stack reach was to get a reaction though. Funny thing, he did not have AQ, or KJ, or AJ, or QJ, or a set, or an overpair. But he still won the hand.
 
Jillychemung

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From my live experience, I wouldn't rule out KK or QT but mostly KK. Lots of live players just like to call preflop with KK as they believe that they are Ace magnets and don't want to do anything with them until after they see the flop.

An aggressive player may also play QT here figuring it will be mult-way and then will def lead his open-ender when the pre-flop raiser checks.
 
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From my live experience, I wouldn't rule out KK or QT but mostly KK. Lots of live players just like to call preflop with KK as they believe that they are Ace magnets and don't want to do anything with them until after they see the flop.

An aggressive player may also play QT here figuring it will be mult-way and then will def lead his open-ender when the pre-flop raiser checks.

Villain did not have KK or QT. He was however trying to lead a draw.
 
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I think he has KQ, bet $15 instantly as a semi-bluff. Hoping for an A or a 9 and then when he hit his king on the river felt he had the best hand.
 
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I think he has KQ, bet $15 instantly as a semi-bluff. Hoping for an A or a 9 and then when he hit his king on the river felt he had the best hand.

Sound logic and a good guess. But villain doesn't have KQ. I was hoping he felt the K on the river improved his hand to TPGK or even 2P but neither were the case. Spoiler soon.
 
Aces2w1n

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Based on people happy to call a raise he has q9

people make mistakes with oesd all the time... so yeh its that

My other guess was kk and he got lucky but yeh ... q9 now fits the bill ... lower sets are out since u lost
 
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Based on people happy to call a raise he has q9

people make mistakes with oesd all the time... so yeh its that

My other guess was kk and he got lucky but yeh ... q9 now fits the bill ... lower sets are out since u lost

Spoiler revealed!

Excellent read. He did indeed have Q9 off suit. Made absolutely no sense but indeed he called a PFR with it, then went on to lead out on the flop and happily called my re-raise. For my flop re-raise I was figuring he'd either fold a weird straight draw to the pressure OR if he had an overpair or two pair would aggro shove and I'd get paid off. Turn gave him the straight, and river just made is a bit higher for him. He then proceeded, I believe unintentionally, but got some dirty looks at the table, slow rolled his winning hand. I turn over my JJ and dealer announces "set of Jacks" table nods, seems like mine, villain pauses, looks, and and says "straight" and turns over Q9! He smiles and goes "I was open ended so I had the odds to call your re-raise" and he believed I had an overpair.
 
thylmanoid

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Thanks for the hand, very interesting. I had a very similar hand like that today, I posted it 30 min ago. It hurts.
 
Aces2w1n

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Spoiler revealed!

Excellent read. He did indeed have Q9 off suit. Made absolutely no sense but indeed he called a PFR with it, then went on to lead out on the flop and happily called my re-raise. For my flop re-raise I was figuring he'd either fold a weird straight draw to the pressure OR if he had an overpair or two pair would aggro shove and I'd get paid off. Turn gave him the straight, and river just made is a bit higher for him. He then proceeded, I believe unintentionally, but got some dirty looks at the table, slow rolled his winning hand. I turn over my JJ and dealer announces "set of Jacks" table nods, seems like mine, villain pauses, looks, and and says "straight" and turns over Q9! He smiles and goes "I was open ended so I had the odds to call your re-raise" and he believed I had an overpair.


Yeah felt it was a straight... we just have to remember that people play poker differently. that is why this game is so annoying :)
 
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Beats like this at 1/2 live are common. Flop must be raised higher. I would have bet 125/or even all in on flop. You cannot slow play it. If he calls and get lucky, he will lose 80% of times in the future. If he folds, you get the pot and be happy.
 
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Beats like this at 1/2 live are common. Flop must be raised higher. I would have bet 125/or even all in on flop. You cannot slow play it. If he calls and get lucky, he will lose 80% of times in the future. If he folds, you get the pot and be happy.

I checked flop to him knowing he'd likely bet since he does this nearly every hand checked to him. In hindsight I see your point, but I wouldn't have bet that big. I think seeing your point I could have taken the lead on the flop and bet pot and if he wants to gamble he can. But I think letting him bet the flop where I can now 3x him right back was a decent move as well. As you said 80% or so of the time he's losing here, he really shouldn't be calling the odds I gave him when I raised his flop bet. But he noted after "I had an open ended straight" so in his mind he had odds to continue. My concern with betting $125 or all in into a $30 pot (or $45 if we assume he bets $15 into the pot as he did) is that even this fishy guy isn't going to call because it's open ended and we lose value. I want him chasing his open ended straights here and to get him to do that we need to keep him in the hand. Also either way we're rarely getting away from a set of JJJ on an J1048 turn.
 
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I don't understand, if you are UTG how do people limp in front of you?

I would just bet the flop myself. By the river you are pot stuck so have to call.
 
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I checked flop to him knowing he'd likely bet since he does this nearly every hand checked to him. In hindsight I see your point, but I wouldn't have bet that big. I think seeing your point I could have taken the lead on the flop and bet pot and if he wants to gamble he can. But I think letting him bet the flop where I can now 3x him right back was a decent move as well. As you said 80% or so of the time he's losing here, he really shouldn't be calling the odds I gave him when I raised his flop bet. But he noted after "I had an open ended straight" so in his mind he had odds to continue. My concern with betting $125 or all in into a $30 pot (or $45 if we assume he bets $15 into the pot as he did) is that even this fishy guy isn't going to call because it's open ended and we lose value. I want him chasing his open ended straights here and to get him to do that we need to keep him in the hand. Also either way we're rarely getting away from a set of JJJ on an J1048 turn.

Yeah, I agree with ur line. I actually think it's more stylistic than anything (trappy vs fast). Most of the time he doesn't get there and u take a big chunk, but the strategy itself is inherently riskier.
 
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Yeah, I agree with ur line. I actually think it's more stylistic than anything (trappy vs fast). Most of the time he doesn't get there and u take a big chunk, but the strategy itself is inherently riskier.

Ironically, the same thing happened the other night, I did a similar line and the villain got his nut straight runner runner. I flopped a set of Aces. I check to two other players knowing one will raise, one does, other folds, I 3 x them they call. Turn gets a little scary, I bet a little over 3/4 pot on turn, he calls. River blanks any flush draws and makes a possible nut straight but trying to think what villain has I put him on maybe 2 pair or TPGK. I go all in (a bit spewy I admit given the river card), he calls and shows AK for the runner runner nut straight to my busted top set. He quite literally had the only hand that could beat me and needed both the turn and river card exactly to do so.

In reviewing this, I could have shoved the turn but is he really calling the shove?
 
psmcb

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Hmmm

Interesting hand from last night what would you do:

Hero: UTG with around $475 with JJ.

Limps to hero, hero bets $8. (table was pretty small pre flop raising lots of folding )

Villain: UTG +2 calls (has about $300 behind him), CO and BB call. UTG +2 has been a bit aggressive in most hands.


Flops comes Jh10c4s.

Hero flops set of Jacks, checks to UTG+2 who instantly bets $15 into about a $32 pot. CO and BB both fold.

Hero re-raises to $45. Villain thinks for a minute and calls.

Turn is 8d.

Hero bets $75.

Villain thinks , reaches for rest of stack, than pauses and flat calls.

River is Ks.

So board at river is Jh10c4s8dKs.

Hero bets $75...villain shoves all in $174 total.

**I'm thinking what he calls pre flop with and what he might be repping/chasing on board. He has been caught before stacking off with stone cold bluffs as well.**

Hero?

on your place, I would have played check - call and Turn all-in
 
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on your place, I would have played check - call and Turn all-in

Thanks for the comment but I think a check-call on flop followed by a turn all in would have ended the same way. Villain catches his straight on the turn anyways. I checked the flop to him, and re-raised his raise which I think in general is the correct move. However in the more recent hand I commented on where I held AAA on a pretty safe board, I should have shoved the turn once it got a little scary.

But from a pure decision making burden relief perspective, you're right, if I shove the turn, I have no more decisions to make and we hope the board pairs on river in both instances. :D
 
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Thanks for the comment but I think a check-call on flop followed by a turn all in would have ended the same way. Villain catches his straight on the turn anyways. I checked the flop to him, and re-raised his raise which I think in general is the correct move. However in the more recent hand I commented on where I held AAA on a pretty safe board, I should have shoved the turn once it got a little scary.

But from a pure decision making burden relief perspective, you're right, if I shove the turn, I have no more decisions to make and we hope the board pairs on river in both instances. :D

Forgive me for venting again, but some lines that people suggest here aren't realistic. Shoving turn would be a MASSIVE overbet, telegraph ur hand, and likely end a very profitable hand for u. Or...ur already dead and lose ur money faster.

We need to take a breath and acknowledge that we don't have to play hands fast just to avoid bad beats. A lot of our money will be won by opponents drawing to hands and not hitting. It's just easy to remember (and post) when things go badly!
 
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Forgive me for venting again, but some lines that people suggest here aren't realistic. Shoving turn would be a MASSIVE overbet, telegraph ur hand, and likely end a very profitable hand for u. Or...ur already dead and lose ur money faster.

We need to take a breath and acknowledge that we don't have to play hands fast just to avoid bad beats. A lot of our money will be won by opponents drawing to hands and not hitting. It's just easy to remember (and post) when things go badly!

Great point. I think either line is good but you're right . Obviously the line I took was , as you said, a way to make money when villain draws and misses. A shove would be a huge overbet I agree. It's interesting how we can convince ourselves in hindsight that the less profitable move might have been the best.
 
psmcb

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Great point. I think either line is good but you're right . Obviously the line I took was , as you said, a way to make money when villain draws and misses. A shove would be a huge overbet I agree. It's interesting how we can convince ourselves in hindsight that the less profitable move might have been the best.

i think you right
 
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