$200 NLHE Full Ring: 2 tricky hands and wondering if I played it correctly

quick

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LIVE in a casino poker room:

So in my second live session ever (I've played online and home games for years) at $1/2 I had a few hands that I keep going back to thinking if I made the correct decisions. I wanted to get some analysis hopefully on these 2 hands. On this table the pre flop raises were very dynamic and changing, the table generally quickly adapted to whatever the last few hands raises were (i.e. one player always opened $7 so most people opened $7. A LAG sat down and made every pre flop bet $15 min, so noticed more players using that amount when they wanted to PFR). A lot of the looser/aggro players are making big moves at this table with TPWK, MPMK, lots of junk hands like 36o being played pre flop like 99+ hitting hidden st8s, low flushes, 2p.

Hand 1:

Hero is on button with AA. UTG calls $2, UTG2 calls $2, rest of table folds to me. I (button) make it $12 to go. SB insta calls, BB folds, UTG insta calls. UTG folds.

SB is pretty LAG, BB is a bit aggressive but not LAG, UTG is very fishy and I've seen her win flops and showdowns with ATC hitting things like 2 pairs.

Flop comes 9s8s2d

SB checks, UTG checks, I bet $25. SB insta folds, UTG immediately raises $100. At this point she has about another $100 behind her and I have about $150 total left.

What do you do knowing UTG is pretty loose and almost always ATC?



Hand 2:

Hero is in SB with 1010. Get a few BB calls, a few folds, button calls, I make it $12 to go, BB is a different player this time and folds, UTG is a bit aggressive (I believe same player as BB in hand above) and calls. Everyone except UTG and a mid position player folds.

Flop comes 10cJdJs rainbow.


I flop 10s full, I bet $25, UTG doubles it to $50. MP folds. At this point I still have about $5-600 behind me and UTG has about $450 behind her.

Now heads up. I think and make it $100, UTG thinks and calls.

Turn is 7d.

At this point I'm pretty sure I'm ahead but new to these massive heads up pots live with post flop deep stack play. I bet $100, UTG insta calls.

River is 2c.

At this point I tank a bit thinking. JJ is in this players range, J10 is likely in range, 77 and 22 seem unlikely given her action on flop and turn. QQ-AA is obviously in her range but doubt she's raising on flop and calling a raise on turn. Jx and AJ is also reasonable at this point to consider. However her aggression historically in session has me thinking. I'm relieved no AQK on turn/river.

I decide to value bet about $50, she instantly reaches and makes it $100. I lock up a bit. She's good enough to trap with JJ or J10. I think if she's bluffing or semi bluffing she's betting more here. If she's trapping and I raise, she's shoving.

I'm smacking myself a bit during the hand for not being more aggressive on flop and turn saying to myself i could have given her cheap draw outs to bigger FHs.

I think and think and think some more....What do you do?
 
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Trabendo_daze

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Hand 1 shove OTF your stacks are really too shallow to consider anything else.

Hand 2 we can't fold TT here once we have a read that villain is fishy. There is one combo of JJ two combos of JT and so many more of Jx (AJ, KJ etc). Once we know she is possibly overvaluing these find a way to get stacks in. You have the effective nuts.
 
Trabendo_daze

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I'm reading a little bit of Monsters under the Bed Syndrome. It's good to be aware of hands that beat you but just keep in mind that good hands are hard to make. Consider the combinatorics and things become a lot clearer. You are ahead in these situations like sooooo often. In pot 1 I'd say you have like 70% equity and in pot two I'd give you like 90%+
 
quick

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I'm reading a little bit of Monsters under the Bed Syndrome. It's good to be aware of hands that beat you but just keep in mind that good hands are hard to make. Consider the combinatorics and things become a lot clearer. You are ahead in these situations like sooooo often. In pot 1 I'd say you have like 70% equity and in pot two I'd give you like 90%+


Hand 1 shove OTF your stacks are really too shallow to consider anything else.

Hand 2 we can't fold TT here once we have a read that villain is fishy. There is one combo of JJ two combos of JT and so many more of Jx (AJ, KJ etc). Once we know she is possibly overvaluing these find a way to get stacks in. You have the effective nuts.

Thanks for the insightful feedback. I agree there was monsters under the bed syndrome going on in my thought process esp in Hand 2. I think in Hand 2 my fear was not justified, def MUBSY and I could have and should have worked on max value on flop and turn and river.

In Hand 1 I think it was more calculated but still MUBSY although less than in Hand 2., I'm not fully believing that player in Hand 1 is 3-4x 3 betting on flop with less than a set or crap two pair given her loose play, yet in hindsight maybe she had 1010-KK and I had her beat. Maybe I overthought it and she just saw her PP was an overpair to board not considering I might have higher.

I think as I get more live sessions in I'll become more comfortable with these scary worse case rare hand scenario. I chalk a lot of the MUBSY you describe up to being new to casino live settings. I need more live time anyways. First time the table was super tight with one loose drunk who took me out with 104o. Second time table was dynamic, good variety of types, and did much better with the second time.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Hand 1 fold. She has 2p or set. You can get it in if you want, but I think you're beat. Unless you have some read that this player spazzes out with TP, this is a fold.

Hand 2, as played, call river. V has Jx, you should have played it faster throughout. Raise bigger pre, bomb flop/GII. We have way the best hand OTF. I know you're deep, whatever. Money should be going in OTT for sure. It could be just a cooler, or it could be tons of Jx shitty villains are never folding for 200 BB.
 
TimovieMan

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Hand 1: how aggressive was the fish when she hit something? If she was only raising two-pair+, then this is a fold. If she was raising top pair and weaker too, then I'd be looking to get it in.

Hand 2: raise a little bigger on the flop, looking to get it in on the turn. You're only beaten by 3 combos of JJ/JT but there's 24 combos of AJ/KJ/QJ that are never folding here. Possibly more if you add J9 and worse Jx hands.
 
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my instincts on hand 1 is a fold, unless you have some info/read that says she could be doing this with a lot worse.

2 i agree with the others, with combos in mind you are good too much here and dominating Jx. Just try to GII ASAP.
 
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1) Pretty much read dependent. If they are the type to call down combo draws/draws and are passive, this is a fold. If they can overplay TP/play draws aggro, this is a snap-jam.

2) Wow. Online, getting it in here against a good regular player with TT 250bb deep is borderline spew. You're most likely the one to be coolered. But since it's a 1/2 live donkfest, shipping the river or turn should be standard. I doubt they ever fold Jx here. You should only be beaten by J10, so 2 combos. Even then, I don't think they would play J10 this way. Like almost ever. Not that many players should be limping JJ UTG unless they are really fishy and passive. That would mean they only raise like half the combos of QQ/AKo+, and KK+.
 
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these difficult hands that often define the way of winning tournaments sometimes luck does not help sometimes leads to the top of the tournament
 
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Hand 1 fold. She has 2p or set. You can get it in if you want, but I think you're beat. Unless you have some read that this player spazzes out with TP, this is a fold.

Hand 2, as played, call river. V has Jx, you should have played it faster throughout. Raise bigger pre, bomb flop/GII. We have way the best hand OTF. I know you're deep, whatever. Money should be going in OTT for sure. It could be just a cooler, or it could be tons of Jx shitty villains are never folding for 200 BB.

Thanks! Hand 1 was an easy fold on flop facing 4-5x re-raise. My only move would be to shove and watching her play previously, she was pretty much ATC, if she hit 2 pair, 3 of a kind, or occasionally TPAK she was raising it up, pretty much face up if she bet she hit her junk 2pair or 3 of a kind.

Hand 2, yeah I agree. I called river. I apologized to table because I tank called and I felt that was a bit poor etiquette in that spot. She complimented me on my patience for basically playing like a rock and said she was "trying a value bluff on me." I agree I misplayed the flop and turn, should have gotten stacks in on either flop or turn.

Hand 1: how aggressive was the fish when she hit something? If she was only raising two-pair+, then this is a fold. If she was raising top pair and weaker too, then I'd be looking to get it in.


Hand 2: raise a little bigger on the flop, looking to get it in on the turn. You're only beaten by 3 combos of JJ/JT but there's 24 combos of AJ/KJ/QJ that are never folding here. Possibly more if you add J9 and worse Jx hands.

She pretty much ATC hit or fold. She was playing bingo poker basically. It seemed like only some players got the message loud and clear as she ended up stacking some player after a few small take downs and left. I watched her showdown nearly every hand she was in and almost every time she won with ATP or 3 of a kind, very occasionally a pair with a weak kicker (i.e. K on flop, she has K4). I only saw her with a PP once or twice and when it was she had a set.

Hand 2 I agree. I think the rush of winning a huge all in pot one or two hands before this hand combined with being new to live facing a deep stack aggressive player had me scared money when I shouldn't have been in that spot. I should've 3 or 4 bet if needed on flop, leading to an AI on 5 bet or AI on turn.


my instincts on hand 1 is a fold, unless you have some info/read that says she could be doing this with a lot worse.

2 i agree with the others, with combos in mind you are good too much here and dominating Jx. Just try to GII ASAP.

Thanks! Yeah I agree, everything I'm hearing is that Hand 1 was easy fold, Hand 2 I needed to cut her off and get stacks in earlier.

1) Pretty much read dependent. If they are the type to call down combo draws/draws and are passive, this is a fold. If they can overplay TP/play draws aggro, this is a snap-jam.

2) Wow. Online, getting it in here against a good regular player with TT 250bb deep is borderline spew. You're most likely the one to be coolered. But since it's a 1/2 live donkfest, shipping the river or turn should be standard. I doubt they ever fold Jx here. You should only be beaten by J10, so 2 combos. Even then, I don't think they would play J10 this way. Like almost ever. Not that many players should be limping JJ UTG unless they are really fishy and passive. That would mean they only raise like half the combos of QQ/AKo+, and KK+.

Thanks! Yeah the read was pretty solid I think, no way she was raising that big with 9x , 8x. MAYBE 1010-KK but given how many crap hands I saw her bingo poker on the flop, it wasn't likely. Hand 2, yeah online is so different. If I have someone re-raising me on flop and turn online in this hand they have JJ or J10 , online got tight and got skilled. I'm not certain this person would have called a shove on any street but I think she would have called an extra raise on river. We were deep enough that the payday for her for an extra 50-100 on river, if she was right would be worth it. I expected if I re-raised her small river bet she was shoving to scare me .


these difficult hands that often define the way of winning tournaments sometimes luck does not help sometimes leads to the top of the tournament

Tournaments can be more wild and depend a lot more on effective stack sizes, blinds, etc. I can't imagine many tourney player who aren't getting it all in with Jx on this board facing bets on every street. But this was $1/2 live cash full ring. Coming from online I was blown away how bad these live players are. I could wear a flashing light on a giant cone on my head whenever I had a premium hand and was coming alive after folding for 2 hours and 3 people will still call me down. to at least turn lol. Weird.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Alright Minh how is getting in TT on JJT like ever spew? I mean gah like how?
 
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Alright Minh how is getting in TT on JJT like ever spew? I mean gah like how?

Against competent 250 bb+ deep-stacked regular players online who understand relative hand strength, it is borderline spew imo. It's not that often of an occurence, so it's nothing really to worry about. Some of the deep-stackers are fish on heaters, and some of the regs have some huge leaks. I am never raising 1010 to get stacks in 300bb deep on a JJ10 board against a good reg though. I seriously doubt I'd get paid off that deep with stuff like KJ/QJ. If the hand were played weirdly, AJ might try to hero, but that's about it. Against weak players or donks who would overvalue trips on a paired board, stacking off is completely 100% standard. Against a bad/okay reg probably fine too.

I remember playing a hand where I flopped 9s full of Jacks against a 300bb deep-stacked reg on Zone once, and we didn't put any raises in on the flop or turn lol. He had AJ. I think we were trying to gauge each other's hand strength and then raise each other on the river, but river was another J and he checked OOP with quads. Guess we were both wary of the other players having J9/JJ. Against each other, if we put in our stacks on the flop/turn that deep, we were sure it's probably always going to be J9/JJ.
 
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Beanfacekilla

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Against competent 250 bb+ deep-stacked regular players online who understand relative hand strength, it is borderline spew imo. It's not that often of an occurence, so it's nothing really to worry about. Some of the deep-stackers are fish on heaters, and some of the regs have some huge leaks. I am never raising 1010 to get stacks in 300bb deep on a JJ10 board against a good reg though. I seriously doubt I'd get paid off that deep with stuff like KJ/QJ. If the hand were played weirdly, AJ might try to hero, but that's about it. Against weak players or donks who would overvalue trips on a paired board, stacking off is completely 100% standard. Against a bad/okay reg probably fine too.

I remember playing a hand where I flopped 9s full of Jacks against a 300bb deep-stacked reg on Zone once, and we didn't put any raises in on the flop or turn lol. He had AJ. I think we were trying to gauge each other's hand strength and then raise each other on the river, but river was another J and he checked OOP with quads. Guess we were both wary of the other players having J9/JJ. Against each other, if we put in our stacks on the flop/turn that deep, we were sure it's probably always going to be J9/JJ.


Minh, this is live poker bro. I think you are underestimating the fish factor. Plus, given line V takes, its pretty unlikely we are beat OTF. Maybe V turned us with some horse shit J-rag, but noooooooo I don't think so.


This is pretty easy spot. Just play it fast, and get it in by the turn. Edit: unless turn is J.
 
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Minh, this is live poker bro. I think you are underestimating the fish factor. Plus, given line V takes, its pretty unlikely we are beat OTF. Maybe V turned us with some horse shit J-rag, but noooooooo I don't think so.


This is pretty easy spot. Just play it fast, and get it in by the turn. Edit: unless turn is J.

Dude, I said live is a donkfest and that it is standard to stack off lol. Well maybe except against the biggest live nit in the world. I never said anything about not stacking off here or folding. Live players are pretty weak, and I doubt even most regs would fold AJ/KJ here. Anyway, the way the hand was played, we are pretty much always good here. Shipping the river over that min-raise. I don't see it likely that someone is playing the nuts/2nd nuts like this.
 
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2n hand.. shoving river is better than folding for suuuuurrreee. I suppose call now (instead of raise, plz dont fold) but bet bigger in the hand... utg will have Jx a ton.

1st hand... you'd need a super strong read to fold this (not a strong read to go AI), nh

sorry you got unlucky
 
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Beanfacekilla

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Dude, I said live is a donkfest and that it is standard to stack off lol. Well maybe except against the biggest live nit in the world. I never said anything about not stacking off here or folding. Live players are pretty weak, and I doubt even most regs would fold AJ/KJ here. Anyway, the way the hand was played, we are pretty much always good here. Shipping the river over that min-raise. I don't see it likely that someone is playing the nuts/2nd nuts like this.


Dude, ok. No worries. :)
 
quick

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Alright Minh how is getting in TT on JJT like ever spew? I mean gah like how?

Would getting it in pre be a bit spewy?

Against competent 250 bb+ deep-stacked regular players online who understand relative hand strength, it is borderline spew imo. It's not that often of an occurence, so it's nothing really to worry about. Some of the deep-stackers are fish on heaters, and some of the regs have some huge leaks. I am never raising 1010 to get stacks in 300bb deep on a JJ10 board against a good reg though. I seriously doubt I'd get paid off that deep with stuff like KJ/QJ. If the hand were played weirdly, AJ might try to hero, but that's about it. Against weak players or donks who would overvalue trips on a paired board, stacking off is completely 100% standard. Against a bad/okay reg probably fine too.

I remember playing a hand where I flopped 9s full of Jacks against a 300bb deep-stacked reg on Zone once, and we didn't put any raises in on the flop or turn lol. He had AJ. I think we were trying to gauge each other's hand strength and then raise each other on the river, but river was another J and he checked OOP with quads. Guess we were both wary of the other players having J9/JJ. Against each other, if we put in our stacks on the flop/turn that deep, we were sure it's probably always going to be J9/JJ.

Since I have more experience in Zone/online than live I was intrigued by both your line and villain's line in this hand you mention. Why would either of you check it down to river? Villian might have had some reason to be tentative and see what you do, but you kept giving him free cards so he could catch. Then the J on river comes and you're now stuck because he has his quads. If he's that nitty he would've folded to any pot sized bet on flop or turn probably, but as others said I'm assuming live that's rarely happening. On Zone I'd absolutely be getting it all in if doable on flop or turn, I'd at least be betting on flop and turn in your spot.

Minh, this is live poker bro. I think you are underestimating the fish factor. Plus, given line V takes, its pretty unlikely we are beat OTF. Maybe V turned us with some horse shit J-rag, but noooooooo I don't think so.


This is pretty easy spot. Just play it fast, and get it in by the turn. Edit: unless turn is J.

Yeah I should have gotten into a betting war with her on the turn if she was biting and re-raising me. Spoiler: She had AJo and I took down the pot for a couple hundred.

Dude, I said live is a donkfest and that it is standard to stack off lol. Well maybe except against the biggest live nit in the world. I never said anything about not stacking off here or folding. Live players are pretty weak, and I doubt even most regs would fold AJ/KJ here. Anyway, the way the hand was played, we are pretty much always good here. Shipping the river over that min-raise. I don't see it likely that someone is playing the nuts/2nd nuts like this.

If I could play the hand over again, I would have absolutely in hindsight re-raised her on river, if she came back at me I would have shoved.

2n hand.. shoving river is better than folding for suuuuurrreee. I suppose call now (instead of raise, plz dont fold) but bet bigger in the hand... utg will have Jx a ton.

1st hand... you'd need a super strong read to fold this (not a strong read to go AI), nh

sorry you got unlucky

Spoiler alert : 2nd hand - I ended up tank calling her river raise and taking the pot down with my winning hand. She had AJo. 1st hand I folded AA on flop to the player's aggressive 4-5x re-raise. I think both were positive outcomes for me.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Quick there are times when I would fistpump get in TT preflop for my entire life savings and there are times when I would fold it without thinking. Way too dependent on opponents and gameflow. However there are very few situations where I would fold TT on this board. I think the line you took is kind of weird and you just need to find a way to get the money in more cleanly I don't really know how to explain it better
 
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Quick there are times when I would fistpump get in TT preflop for my entire life savings and there are times when I would fold it without thinking. Way too dependent on opponents and gameflow. However there are very few situations where I would fold TT on this board. I think the line you took is kind of weird and you just need to find a way to get the money in more cleanly I don't really know how to explain it better

I agree with you on all your points here. I'm not folding 1010 on this spot I don't think. In terms of fist pumping 1010 all in pre with everything as you said that's so opponent specific you'd have to be soul reading that player.

I agree my line was weird and I chalk it up to being new to the live casino setting. In context of this specific hand, both villain and I read each other as at least somewhat competent players (she read me as patient and tentative and I read her as not quite LAG but aggressive enough to pull a wild bluff out). I have no idea why she put out a small "value bluff raise" on river raising my small actual value bet , she claimed it was a "rare bluff and should've known you were patiently waiting" I wish she had stayed and played more after that because looking back she was itching to make moves and play, not fold all night like I was, I don't know if she choked and wasn't sure where she was at or if she read me like a book and was assuming I'd 3 bet her on her raise giving her an easy fold if she's reading my hand or an easy shove if she wants to rep quads or higher FH or has it. I was overthinking for sure, my line of thought was she was value betting J10 or JJ (silly in hindsight I think) and read me for 1010 or J7 or J2 on river and thought if I re-raised her on river again she'd shove and what then? In reality you're right, it was a weird line.


As others said i should have found a way to get stacks in on flop or turn at the latest but I got caught up in "whose tricking who" in this situation. On one hand I didn't want to scare her off the hand when I hit so big on flop (and I was seen that night as pretty tight and generally had the goods when I had to show down) but on other hand I dodged a bullet with how poorly I played the turn and lost value on river by not putting her stack on the line.

I appreciated your feedback here, it's definitely good to get perspective. At first I was ok with my play (and I did win the hand and the pot) but it bothered me that I was too tentative in spots where 99% of the time I'm ahead by a mile.

I need to keep perspective that this is live $1/2 not online too. We watched a guy at the table shove all in on river on a possible FH board and possible open ended st8 board for at least 300BB , get called by the higher straight and have the dealer tell him "i'm sorry sir, what straight were you announcing, you have no hand" So that should have been a huge red flag to me that fancy plays and big hand traps aren't common at $1/2 and I over estimated the villains skill in Hand 2 haha. The only way I was losing Hand 2 was if I folded or a rare beat. Obviously in hindsight whenever you pop a FH on flop generally you're facing the rare possibility of seeing someone hit quads but the chances are so small long term I need to be getting stacks in.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I agree with you on all your points here. I'm not folding 1010 on this spot I don't think. In terms of fist pumping 1010 all in pre with everything as you said that's so opponent specific you'd have to be soul reading that player.

I agree my line was weird and I chalk it up to being new to the live casino setting. In context of this specific hand, both villain and I read each other as at least somewhat competent players (she read me as patient and tentative and I read her as not quite LAG but aggressive enough to pull a wild bluff out). I have no idea why she put out a small "value bluff raise" on river raising my small actual value bet , she claimed it was a "rare bluff and should've known you were patiently waiting" I wish she had stayed and played more after that because looking back she was itching to make moves and play, not fold all night like I was, I don't know if she choked and wasn't sure where she was at or if she read me like a book and was assuming I'd 3 bet her on her raise giving her an easy fold if she's reading my hand or an easy shove if she wants to rep quads or higher FH or has it. I was overthinking for sure, my line of thought was she was value betting J10 or JJ (silly in hindsight I think) and read me for 1010 or J7 or J2 on river and thought if I re-raised her on river again she'd shove and what then? In reality you're right, it was a weird line.


As others said i should have found a way to get stacks in on flop or turn at the latest but I got caught up in "whose tricking who" in this situation. On one hand I didn't want to scare her off the hand when I hit so big on flop (and I was seen that night as pretty tight and generally had the goods when I had to show down) but on other hand I dodged a bullet with how poorly I played the turn and lost value on river by not putting her stack on the line.

I appreciated your feedback here, it's definitely good to get perspective. At first I was ok with my play (and I did win the hand and the pot) but it bothered me that I was too tentative in spots where 99% of the time I'm ahead by a mile.

I need to keep perspective that this is live $1/2 not online too. We watched a guy at the table shove all in on river on a possible FH board and possible open ended st8 board for at least 300BB , get called by the higher straight and have the dealer tell him "i'm sorry sir, what straight were you announcing, you have no hand" So that should have been a huge red flag to me that fancy plays and big hand traps aren't common at $1/2 and I over estimated the villains skill in Hand 2 haha. The only way I was losing Hand 2 was if I folded or a rare beat. Obviously in hindsight whenever you pop a FH on flop generally you're facing the rare possibility of seeing someone hit quads but the chances are so small long term I need to be getting stacks in.

Yo... for live play, I kinda live by one simple rule.

Fast play little part of full house, like 10-10 on J-J-10 for example, or 7-7 on A-A-7.

The reason is you are blocking the 10, so V doesn't have 10x on J-J-10, and if you get action, it's either an overpair, or trips (usually, but live villains do stupid shit like chase gutters and FDs too on paired boards). So we swing for the fence to get max value from trips. If they fold overpair, at least we tried. We are pretty much going for offensive overbets (as much as they will call). Obviously, this is villain dependant. We can't prison rape smart villains with offensive overbets, they will know better.

For example: in 2013 or 2014, I was on a table full of weak-passive scared-ish money players. At some point, I realized I need to switch gears to full on loose aggro maniac style.

So, I beat this table up for about an hour. Show bluffs, put everyone on tilt. Then, I switch gears and play tight, straight forward poker. I know these people are about to implode. The tension is so high at the table, you can literally feel it.

This hand occurs, an example of a boat like the one you had....

I have 4-4 in MP. UTG raises to $10. I call to set-mine, and others call. UTG has been a frequent flyer with Beanfacekilla airlines. He has been trying so hard to flop something vs us. He just kept missing, and we would just bully this dude out of every pot he entered with us. So, dude has had enough.... he is ready to be stacked. We have set the stage.


So here we go.


We see 5w flop of K-K-4. UTG checks. I found this odd, because I know this guy had a hand from the moment he raised preflop. So, what do we do? Pot it. $50.

Folds back to UTG preflop raiser. He calls. Now, I know this guy has Kx. He thinks he's trapping me. Moo-aaa-ha-ha. ...

So I assign him K-A through K-J. So we can really whack this dude here.

Turn is a 6. Dude checks. The is $150 in the pot. He has about $350. We cover him.

I move in for an offensive overbet. More than twice the pot.


This guy tanks for about 10 or 15 seconds, if I recall correctly. He calls.


I think to myself "NO PAINT CARDS, NO PAINT CARDS, NO ACE".


River 7. Board K-K-4-6-7. We show 4-4. Dealer announces "full house, 4's full".


Dude looks like he's about to puke, and tables K-Jo. He put around $400 into this pot, a pot that we scoop.

In reality, in what alternate universe is K-J the best hand, on that board, facing that much aggression? In his universe I guess.


Point being, when you flop J-J-10 with pocket 10's, and your opponent has Jx, you can swing for the fence bro. They will almost never lay that shit down. They are prime for the picking. I have stacked people for well over 200 BB in spots like these.

Don't squander a good spot like this (at live poker).


However, you will get unlucky sometimes. There will be coolers. Beware, but don't play scared.



As for bigger boats, like A-A on A-7-7, slowplay is fine. But not too slow. You gotta bet turn. Gotta. Hopefully someone has 7x, and they raise you, you just sandbag and flat. Then, hit them hard on the river.

Catching my drift?


All this advice is geared towards live $1/$2 NLHE. Live poker. Online is different.
 
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MinhANguyen

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Would getting it in pre be a bit spewy?



Since I have more experience in Zone/online than live I was intrigued by both your line and villain's line in this hand you mention. Why would either of you check it down to river? Villian might have had some reason to be tentative and see what you do, but you kept giving him free cards so he could catch. Then the J on river comes and you're now stuck because he has his quads. If he's that nitty he would've folded to any pot sized bet on flop or turn probably, but as others said I'm assuming live that's rarely happening. On Zone I'd absolutely be getting it all in if doable on flop or turn.

What? Who said we checked all the way? He was the PFR in the CO, and I called OTB. He c-bets, I call. He checks turn, I bet. He rivers quads, check check. I'd provably the raise the turn if he bets, but not the flop. The pot would be too bloated, and I'd isolate myself against the top of his range if I raise flop, bomb turn, bomb river. Call flop, raise turn, bomb river seemed like the more ideal line to me if he had something like AJ/KJ.

You do realize that 99 is like the Q/K high flush on that board 300bb deep right...? It's only the 3rd nuts. Just because we have strong absolute hand strength i.e. full house, does not mean we should start immediately going broke against a 300bb reg.

I don't know how often you play deep online, but everytime it's deep reg vs deep reg 220bb+ stacking off, it's always bigger FH vs smaller FH, flopped middle set over bottom set, set vs top two, 2nd nut flush vs nut flush, or a complete bluff. People online get pretty wary the deeper they are.
 
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quick

quick

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Would getting it in pre be a bit spewy?



Since I have more experience in Zone/online than live I was intrigued by both your line and villain's line in this hand you mention. Why would either of you check it down to river? Villian might have had some reason to be tentative and see what you do, but you kept giving him free cards so he could catch. Then the J on river comes and you're now stuck because he has his quads. If he's that nitty he would've folded to any pot sized bet on flop or turn probably, but as others said I'm assuming live that's rarely happening. On Zone I'd absolutely be getting it all in if doable on flop or turn.

What? Who said we checked all the way? He was the PFR in the CO, and I called OTB. He c-bets, I call. He checks turn, I bet. He rivers quads, check check. I'd provably the raise the turn if he bets, but not the flop. The pot would be too bloated, and I'd isolate myself against the top of his range if I raise flop, bomb turn, bomb river. Call flop, raise turn, bomb river seemed like the more ideal line to me if he had something like AJ/KJ.

You do realize that 99 is like the Q/K high flush on that board 300bb deep right...? It's only the 3rd nuts. Just because we have strong absolute hand strength i.e. full house, does not mean we should start immediately going broke against a 300bb reg.

I don't know how often you play deep online, but everytime it's deep reg vs deep reg 220bb+ stacking off, it's always bigger FH vs smaller FH, flopped middle set over bottom set, set vs top two, 2nd nut flush vs nut flush, or a complete bluff. People online get pretty wary the deeper they are.

I meant the example of having 1010 and getting it all in with that pre flop in most cases seems spewy unless your stack is small and it wouldn't be worth it to risk calling a pre raise and then having to shove/fold flop. I think 99% of the time in Zone I'm def not getting all in pre flop unless like 4-5 other players are already getting it in.

We didn't check it down, there was action the entire hand, she kept doubling my bet every street. I def agree online and esp in Zone people are generally more aware of their stack sizes and also the actual possible hands that beat them. You're right, online a lot of times if a deeper stack is shoving and you have the smaller FH but there's higher FH possibility or quads you're seeing one of them occasionally and rest of time you're seeing either nut flush or a complete bluff spew of them trying to rep the hand you actually hold. . Like you I play mostly online so live was a wild new experience how bad people are compared to online.

As for your FH example you made it sound like you both checked it down. But why not raise his flop C bet in your spot?
 
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Yo... for live play, I kinda live by one simple rule.

Fast play little part of full house, like 10-10 on J-J-10 for example, or 7-7 on A-A-7.

The reason is you are blocking the 10, so V doesn't have 10x on J-J-10, and if you get action, it's either an overpair, or trips (usually, but live villains do stupid shit like chase gutters and FDs too on paired boards). So we swing for the fence to get max value from trips. If they fold overpair, at least we tried. We are pretty much going for offensive overbets (as much as they will call). Obviously, this is villain dependant. We can't prison rape smart villains with offensive overbets, they will know better.

For example: in 2013 or 2014, I was on a table full of weak-passive scared-ish money players. At some point, I realized I need to switch gears to full on loose aggro maniac style.

So, I beat this table up for about an hour. Show bluffs, put everyone on tilt. Then, I switch gears and play tight, straight forward poker. I know these people are about to implode. The tension is so high at the table, you can literally feel it.

This hand occurs, an example of a boat like the one you had....

I have 4-4 in MP. UTG raises to $10. I call to set-mine, and others call. UTG has been a frequent flyer with Beanfacekilla airlines. He has been trying so hard to flop something vs us. He just kept missing, and we would just bully this dude out of every pot he entered with us. So, dude has had enough.... he is ready to be stacked. We have set the stage.


So here we go.


We see 5w flop of K-K-4. UTG checks. I found this odd, because I know this guy had a hand from the moment he raised preflop. So, what do we do? Pot it. $50.

Folds back to UTG preflop raiser. He calls. Now, I know this guy has Kx. He thinks he's trapping me. Moo-aaa-ha-ha. ...

So I assign him K-A through K-J. So we can really whack this dude here.

Turn is a 6. Dude checks. The is $150 in the pot. He has about $350. We cover him.

I move in for an offensive overbet. More than twice the pot.


This guy tanks for about 10 or 15 seconds, if I recall correctly. He calls.


I think to myself "NO PAINT CARDS, NO PAINT CARDS, NO ACE".


River 7. Board K-K-4-6-7. We show 4-4. Dealer announces "full house, 4's full".


Dude looks like he's about to puke, and tables K-Jo. He put around $400 into this pot, a pot that we scoop.

In reality, in what alternate universe is K-J the best hand, on that board, facing that much aggression? In his universe I guess.


Point being, when you flop J-J-10 with pocket 10's, and your opponent has Jx, you can swing for the fence bro. They will almost never lay that shit down. They are prime for the picking. I have stacked people for well over 200 BB in spots like these.

Don't squander a good spot like this (at live poker).


However, you will get unlucky sometimes. There will be coolers. Beware, but don't play scared.



As for bigger boats, like A-A on A-7-7, slowplay is fine. But not too slow. You gotta bet turn. Gotta. Hopefully someone has 7x, and they raise you, you just sandbag and flat. Then, hit them hard on the river.

Catching my drift?


All this advice is geared towards live $1/$2 NLHE. Live poker. Online is different.


This makes a lot of sense looking at live $1/2 NLHE. Thanks for this. I see exactly what you mean.
 
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