$200 NLHE Full Ring: As-10s in HJ against loose PFR

Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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I wanted some input on this hand. I am interested in the pre flop decision most.


Let me try and paint a picture:

$1/$2 NLHE, $50-$300 buy in.

The V in question is UTG. He has been raising more than 50% of his hands, maybe a little more. This is an estimate, this is live. He is also calling 3b OOP with as bad as Q-rag suited, K-8o, and A-8o.

So, we have already 3b him once, and he called with $130 back with K-8o. That was 2 or 3 hands ago.


So, he opens to $10 or $12, 1 caller in MP, and I think about 3b here, but I decided against it, based on these factors.... We have As-10s, 1 caller, and we don't know what he has, there are also 4 people behind me who haven't acted yet.... We are about $235-250 deep, and dude in SB is $500+.

Anyways, I decide to flat pre, and play a pot in position.


SB calls, BB folds. 4w to flop A-10-Qr. ($40~$48)

SB donks for $20. He has done this before with top pair. This is one of the things this guy will do to try and set his own price, maybe he's trying to slow the loose PFR down, I dunno why he does it, but he prob has TP...

PFR calls $20, folds to us, we are last. We can call and close, or raise.

We raise to $65, SB tanks a bit. I put this guy on A-K or A-J. No he prob wouldn't 3b either of those hands. He somewhere between tight passive and loose passive.


SB calls, all others fold. We have about $155 left in stack.

Turn 6h (two hearts, the A and the 6h I think, not 100% sure). ($190ish)


SB checks. I think a little, maybe hesitate 5-10 seconds. I know what I'm doing already, but I want a call here from A-J or A-K. Or Q-J/K-Q, but man I don't think he is that dumb to call with 2nd pair+gutter. Yeah I just feel he has A-J/A-K exactly.


He tanks probably more than a minute, one chip calls me.


The river is irrelevant.




Questions are, should I 3b pre? If UTG 4b us, do we get it in with As-10s? Can we flat and see the flop in position here, potentially 5 way? UTG is probably aware we are on to him, and may expect us to 3b wider than normal? I could be thinking too much, but the guy is definitely thinking about stuff. He is loose and just getting there alot (he also covers us), but he is clearly thinking about these plays, and spots. Like he seems to know when to check back instead of cbet, etc.


And, did we play the hand ok post flop, as played?
 
J

JKo2theQQ

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Preflop: Your description of UTG's play so far says he is either a bad LAG that is getting lucky, or a very skilled LAG who knows how to create a table image (I hate those players.....very dangerous). You believe he is a thinking player so I would lean toward the latter until he shows otherwise. As for the preflop decision of whether we should 3bet or flat, I think flatting and playing the hand with position is the better choice. With UTG and MP already raising and calling and 4 players still to act it's unlikely a 3bet would win the hand preflop. Also, given our hand and the stack sizes involved we would almost certainly have to fold to a large 4bet or shove from anyone behind us. Even if I thought UTG might 4bet/shove light, AT just isn't strong enough for me to feel comfortable being forced to that decision.
**Flop: I would agree that the SB leading with the donk bet looks like a feeler/blocker bet. As you said, something like AK or AJ are definitely possible. Since the SB was getting good pot odds preflop I would also include all broadways and some others like AQ, A9, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JJ, JT, J9, and TT in his range. With the fairly wet flop we would expect a larger bet to protect hands like AQ, QT, QQ, and TT. The only real concern would be donking small with KJ to build the pot. UTG has a slightly wider range, but I would assume that you probably have the best hand on the flop. I absolutely agree with the raise on the flop because it gives you value, protection, and also information. SB calls and UTG folds.
**Turn: Once a brick comes on the turn, I like our hand even more. The only hands that have us beat and fit the SB's range and action are KJ, AQ, and maybe an unlikely TT. I have no problem continuing our current line. I'm going for the most value and if he has AQ, KJ, or TT......so be it.
Overall I probably play it the same way. I like flatting over a 3bet. If we are the button, SB, or BB I might be more open to 3betting.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Preflop: Your description of UTG's play so far says he is either a bad LAG that is getting lucky, or a very skilled LAG who knows how to create a table image (I hate those players.....very dangerous). You believe he is a thinking player so I would lean toward the latter until he shows otherwise. As for the preflop decision of whether we should 3bet or flat, I think flatting and playing the hand with position is the better choice. With UTG and MP already raising and calling and 4 players still to act it's unlikely a 3bet would win the hand preflop. Also, given our hand and the stack sizes involved we would almost certainly have to fold to a large 4bet or shove from anyone behind us. Even if I thought UTG might 4bet/shove light, AT just isn't strong enough for me to feel comfortable being forced to that decision.
**Flop: I would agree that the SB leading with the donk bet looks like a feeler/blocker bet. As you said, something like AK or AJ are definitely possible. Since the SB was getting good pot odds preflop I would also include all broadways and some others like AQ, A9, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JJ, JT, J9, and TT in his range. With the fairly wet flop we would expect a larger bet to protect hands like AQ, QT, QQ, and TT. The only real concern would be donking small with KJ to build the pot. UTG has a slightly wider range, but I would assume that you probably have the best hand on the flop. I absolutely agree with the raise on the flop because it gives you value, protection, and also information. SB calls and UTG folds.
**Turn: Once a brick comes on the turn, I like our hand even more. The only hands that have us beat and fit the SB's range and action are KJ, AQ, and maybe an unlikely TT. I have no problem continuing our current line. I'm going for the most value and if he has AQ, KJ, or TT......so be it.
Overall I probably play it the same way. I like flatting over a 3bet. If we are the button, SB, or BB I might be more open to 3betting.

Thanks man! I really like your thoughts and the way you wrote it up....
 
J

JKo2theQQ

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Yea....Gotta hate on those awesome LAG players. They make the rest of us look like assholes. Have to pump up my self esteem somehow
 
Jillychemung

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If no one else at the table has shown any interest in 3-bet ISO'ng this villain then I'd be looking to 3-bet here with A2s-A5s,ATs+ (for Ace hands). If others behind us have recognized that villain is spewy then I'm gonna tighten my MP open range by limiting myself to AQs+ (for Ace hands)

If I do 3-bet here then I'm gonna make it a little larger as I wouldn't want villain's call to price in the other player, probably pop it to $50.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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If no one else at the table has shown any interest in 3-bet ISO'ng this villain then I'd be looking to 3-bet here with A2s-A5s,ATs+ (for Ace hands). If others behind us have recognized that villain is spewy then I'm gonna tighten my MP open range by limiting myself to AQs+ (for Ace hands)

If I do 3-bet here then I'm gonna make it a little larger as I wouldn't want villain's call to price in the other player, probably pop it to $50.


Yeah I like the 3b sizing you propose. I would probably make it $50 on the nose had I done so. And, like nearly all 1/2 players, I think I was the only one who 3b this guy so far. No one ever does that unless they have like 10-10+, maybe even QQ+ depending on how passive they are. 1/2 players just don't know how to combat repeated aggression pre Flop. They just limp/call, or they just raise an absurd amount when the have a big pair, and blow the dude out of the pot.


I am still torn on whether I should 3b, but I don't think I can really go wrong doing so. The guy who opened is just way way out of line.
 
Figaroo2

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I'd 3bet and barrel his sorry ass, if he's opening too much he has to deal with all his mediocre junk holdings by either folding it or bluffing it. Which is he doing?
Unless MP is trapping how strong can he be? If we flat we risk getting squeezed by the SB when we can just take control, if anyone 4bet raises its a simple fold with AT.
We make money in this game by punishing loose players who open too much. We should also generally be putting money into the pot when we think we are ahead which we surely are.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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I'd 3bet and barrel his sorry ass, if he's opening too much he has to deal with all his mediocre junk holdings by either folding it or bluffing it. Which is he doing?
Unless MP is trapping how strong can he be? If we flat we risk getting squeezed by the SB when we can just take control, if anyone 4bet raises its a simple fold with AT.
We make money in this game by punishing loose players who open too much. We should also generally be putting money into the pot when we think we are ahead which we surely are.


For sure. I like it.
 
Q

QA77

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I think you played it fine. If you decide to 3bet, I would fold to a 4bet unless you get a good price. I would lean towards calling with A10s and 3betting A10o.
 
S

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Not a good spot for a 3b pre.
His donk lead on the flop looks like a setup from previous hands making you think he has no better than an ace, even though you said yourself this really only makes sense with AK or AJ as the redraw. You can check/call him down but on the flop you are beat and it doesn't look like the turn changed that at all.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Not a good spot for a 3b pre.
His donk lead on the flop looks like a setup from previous hands making you think he has no better than an ace, even though you said yourself this really only makes sense with AK or AJ as the redraw. You can check/call him down but on the flop you are beat and it doesn't look like the turn changed that at all.


How can I check call him down if I have position? Do we check out of turn?
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Not a good spot for a 3b pre.
His donk lead on the flop looks like a setup from previous hands making you think he has no better than an ace, even though you said yourself this really only makes sense with AK or AJ as the redraw. You can check/call him down but on the flop you are beat and it doesn't look like the turn changed that at all.


And I wasn't beat. He had A-Jo.
 
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SafetyMark

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How can I check call him down if I have position? Do we check out of turn?

Yeah, you really need to work in the out of turn check into your repertoire. All good, thinking players know just how/when to angle shoot. Just ask Alec Torelli.

I was referring to the fact that the action is closed for the entire hand based on your flop decision. If it is checked to you on later streets, I would check back.
 
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SafetyMark

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And I wasn't beat. He had A-Jo.

2 things:

1) How did you even find this out? You posed it as you were going to shove if you thought he had exactly AK/AJ and didn't think he'd be dumb enough to call. So you did and he did? Nice catch, I guess?

2) How BAD is this guy? Obviously no problem with seizing aggression trying to cheapen your continuation in the hand. But for all the reasons you and others pointed out in this thread, it's a terrible spot to do that. Which again doesn't explain how you ever found out his hand!
 
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