$200 NLHE Full Ring: $1/$3 Made straight on a wet board vs lag

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Bravocado

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Hi new the the forum and wanting an opinion on a hand I was recently involved in. I have been playing for a year, recreational, once or twice a week at my local card room.


Game is $1/$3 No Limit Hold’Em.


Hero stack: $260 (About three hours into session, solid tag image. On the button. Table is polarised 50:50 with some extremely tight players and some exceptionally aggressive players, particularly the villain.)
Villain stack: $350 (Older Eastern European macho-man type in the Lo-jack. Never folds when reraised as a rule, extremely aggressive. Repeatedly gets his stack in with any suited hole cards. Big swings in his stack size as a result across the night.)
Cutoff stack: $250 (Visiting player, recreational but solid play. Appeared loose but was being dealt almost exclusively premium hands.)

*** PRE-FLOP ***
UTG: folds
UTG+1: limps $3
Lo-Jack: Bets $15, somewhat lower than his usual opening bet of ~$20.
Hi-Jack: folds
Cutoff: Calls $15.
Button (H): I call $15 with :qh4: :jd4:
Small Blind: folds
Big Blind: folds
UTG+1: folds


Pot Size: $52
*** FLOP ***

:kh4: :4d4: :ad4:
UTG+1: checks
Villain: checks
Cutoff: bets $10
Hero: calls $10. I sensed straight opportunity and with such a low bet decided to take it.
UTG+1: folds
Villain: calls $10.
Pot size: $82

*** TURN ***

:kh4: :4d4: :ad4: :10h4:
Villain: Bets $45.
Cutoff: Calls $45.
Pot size: $172.
Hero stack: $235
What is the best move here?
 
Last edited:
teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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I like a raise, but the only raise that makes sense other than a min raise is a shove. You are looking for villain to call, and he certainly can as you wrote in the notes. No reason to let this run out to a paired board or finish the 2 flushes. Shoving certainly isn't bad. He'll call with AK, AA, and KK and possibly Ax of hearts
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
I would just fold this hand.

Flop
Clearly calling such a small bet.

Turn
You have the nuts right now, but you are against two opponents, and there are a ton of river cards, that are bad for you. Any diamond or heart will create a potential flush, a board pairing card might give someone a full house, and a Q or J could give someone the same straight as yours. Pot is 217$, after you call the 45$, and you have 190$ left behind. This is less than a pot sized bet, so the only move, which makes sense, is to go all in. This is not the time to get cute and just call or make a miniraise or something.
 
jordanbillie

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I think I would have played this hand exactly as you have thus far.

Just shove.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Fold the unsuited combos of QJ here pre. You're too often dominated.

As played flop is still probably a fold for me, we are getting 6 to 1 but we have only 3 clean outs. It's a tiny bet and mutli way and we have an aggressive V so it probably has enough implied odds if we hit to call so I guess I could go either way here but slightly prefer a fold for all the times we miss our 3 outter. Those $10 calls add up quick when your stack is only $260.

Turn is a clear jam. If we aren't jamming here we should have folded flop. We block both flushes and have the nuts. We can get called by all types of sets, flush draws, and 2 pair hands and combo draws. Tons of rivers kill our action as well or worse yet make our hand second or third best.
 
jordanbillie

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Fold the unsuited combos of QJ here pre. You're too often dominated.

As played flop is still probably a fold for me, we are getting 6 to 1 but we have only 3 clean outs. It's a tiny bet and mutli way and we have an aggressive V so it probably has enough implied odds if we hit to call so I guess I could go either way here but slightly prefer a fold for all the times we miss our 3 outter. Those $10 calls add up quick when your stack is only $260.

Turn is a clear jam. If we aren't jamming here we should have folded flop. We block both flushes and have the nuts. We can get called by all types of sets, flush draws, and 2 pair hands and combo draws. Tons of rivers kill our action as well or worse yet make our hand second or third best.

While I agree with your analysis of folding pre flop in a standard game, I feel that this table dynamic described in this hand warrants a call with QJo.
 
Bozovicdj

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Preflop
I would just fold this hand.

Flop
Clearly calling such a small bet.

Turn
You have the nuts right now, but you are against two opponents, and there are a ton of river cards, that are bad for you. Any diamond or heart will create a potential flush, a board pairing card might give someone a full house, and a Q or J could give someone the same straight as yours. Pot is 217$, after you call the 45$, and you have 190$ left behind. This is less than a pot sized bet, so the only move, which makes sense, is to go all in. This is not the time to get cute and just call or make a miniraise or something.

I completely agree with everything said here. Would only add that behind the flop call there is reasoning in some implied odds. If we know Villain will continue almost any turn, then it seems legit to call a small bet, to hit that T on the turn and get payed by some random hand.


While I agree with your analysis of folding pre flop in a standard game, I feel that this table dynamic described in this hand warrants a call with QJo.


If the table dynamics is really so loose, then that's a reason to be tighter right? Calling with QJo, even in position is pretty loose IMO. Let's be honest, if V is betting with any 2 and then continuing with any 2 on the flop, you really need to hit a very very good flop to call to see the turn.
AKx is not the best of flops for us but in the given situation, calling flop is fine. if the flop is Axx with no T-K, then QJ is a super fast fold and a big -EV play cause of all the folds we need to make to pure aggression.
 
liuouhgkres

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If table is loose, then you need to fold bottom of your range and play tighter. Also, you are playing live cash which if I guess should have ridiculously high rake. That's also reason to play tighter.
 
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Ianmacca99

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QJo is a fold preflop for me as played I would also call the flop and look to fold unimproved on the turn as the only outs we are looking for is a non diamond 10

We get it on the turn and the only play is to shove theres a lot of bad rivers for our hand so getting the money in now while we are best is the only play IMO

Also if opponents are on draws and miss we aren't getting paid so charge them to draw now
 
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Bravocado

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Thanks for the insight and replies everyone.

As it happened I shoved all-in. Villain called and the other folded, surprised at my large bet.


The river came :4c4:. I hesitantly showed my straight and Villain declared “I have full house” and sent me home. Obviously a bad beat for me but glad to hear that most would’ve made the same call in that situation.
 
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fundiver199

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The important is, you got in it ahead. What cards come after that, will take care of itself in the long run. If you had slowplayed and gotten it in on the river, when you were beat, that is the time, you can consider, if you perhaps made a mistake.

If he "send you home", that mean, you dont have a bankroll, and that is problematic, if you are going to play regularly. In that case you should have at a minimum 20 full buyins set aside for poker, which for this game would be 20 x 300 = 6.000$. If you dont have that kind of money, you are better off practicing online, where its possible to play for much less.
 
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Just shove. You usually win when called so that's ok. You may lose to draws, who will often call. Folding them out is ok because you get it without chance getting a say. In the end it's probably lower variance that sandbagging till the river, what you might get bluffed of your hand, it drawn, or no further action.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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I have been playing for a year, recreational, once or twice a week at my local card room.

Game is $1/$3 No Limit Hold’Em.

The important is, you got in it ahead. What cards come after that, will take care of itself in the long run. If you had slowplayed and gotten it in on the river, when you were beat, that is the time, you can consider, if you perhaps made a mistake.

If he "send you home", that mean, you dont have a bankroll, and that is problematic, if you are going to play regularly. In that case you should have at a minimum 20 full buyins set aside for poker, which for this game would be 20 x 300 = 6.000$. If you dont have that kind of money, you are better off practicing online, where its possible to play for much less.
As others have said, the main objective in this game is to get the money in good. And although there was some disagreement on how you got there your move all in was correct and got a call. In the long term this will be very profitable.

I very rarely disagree with fundiver but as a once or twice a week rec player myself with a separate full time job I see nothing wrong with continuing to play without a 20 (or even 10) full buy in bank roll. In my opinion as long as you can afford to lose what you came to play with that day you are doing ok. You can review hands after each session as you've done here by posting online for any hands that gave you trouble. If you are consistently losing and want to limit losses while improving your game then you can look into finding a smaller game, live or online.
 
Rodolfo888

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#Game No : 548301097
***** 888poker Snap Poker Hand History for Game 548301097 *****
$0,10/$0,20 Blinds No Limit Holdem - ***
Table Naucalpan 10 Max (real money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: IAMSTARVING ( $35,45 )
Seat 2: iStruckGold ( $59,28 )
Seat 4: JJZEkl ( $5,24 )
Seat 6: p0kern3rd ( $21,04 )
Seat 7: zweetreet ( $8,89 )
Seat 9: Roldolfo555 ( $20,03 )
iStruckGold posts small blind [$0,10]
JJZEkl posts big blind [$0,20]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Roldolfo555 [ Qe, Ao ]
p0kern3rd raises [$0,40]
zweetreet folds
Roldolfo555 calls [$0,40]
IAMSTARVING folds
iStruckGold folds
JJZEkl raises [$0,85]
p0kern3rd folds
Roldolfo555 raises [$4,90]
JJZEkl calls [$4,19]
** Dealing flop ** [ Kc, Kp, 7p ]
** Dealing turn ** [ 6o ]
** Dealing river ** [ 5o ]
** Summary **
JJZEkl shows [ Ae, De ]
Roldolfo555 shows [ Qe, Ao ]
Roldolfo555 collected [ $10,44 ]
 
Bozovicdj

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No, I emphatically disagree with this logic.


Feel free to, emphatically, explain to me why? :)

If we know a certain player plays any 2 cards, does that mean we will play any 2 cards as well, cause we just might outflop him/her?
 
jordanbillie

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Feel free to, emphatically, explain to me why? :)

If we know a certain player plays any 2 cards, does that mean we will play any 2 cards as well, cause we just might outflop him/her?


A table full of loose passive players means that we can play more flops because we will get paid when we hit. Also, with more players per flop the game turns into a game of pure odds. Let's assume we have 5 limpers already and are holding QJo. All we need to know is that we have a better than 1/6 chance (~17%) of winning/outflopping 5 other random hands, which we do. Plus, with such a loose passive table, the chances that one of the 5 others hands are a premium hand is (paradoxically) less than if we were playing a flop against just 1 or 2 TAG players. Loose table dynamics encourage many players per flop with weak holdings, thus expanding our preflop hand range that we should be playing.
 
hackmeplz

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The flop is not showing up correctly for me, so can't comment on that, but as for the preflop decision I think there's an option no one has suggested, and that is a 3bet. While I like Jordan's logic in general, we can't really apply that in a multiway flop quite as well. We do have position, but we have a hand that we're going to make many more mistakes with than our opponents in a multiway flop. Sure we might make some money on QJx and we can bink straights, but what other boards are we actually going to be able to play well? And how often are we going to be able to utilize our position and take pots away with the worst hand?

Contrast that with a 3bet though, and a lot of that goes away. You have a hand that plays well against described villain's preflop raise/calling range, you gain some equity by most of the time getting people to fold, and you put yourself in a spot where you will make very few mistakes postflop compared to villain.
 
TheDude6622

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For me there's two schools of thought. One, is we have to get it in when we have the best and try to protect our hand against two other players. There are a lot of cards on the river that can be scary, and since we float with a gutter here and hit, there's no reason to believe that someone else could be floating a runner runner flush.

So that brings me to option two, is to call the bet and see what the river brings us. Yes there are a lot of cards to help them, but there are more cards there for them to swing and miss, and bluff. This gives them the opportunity to bluff the river.

Since the pre-flop raise was smaller, I'm putting them on an ace rag/two pair hand.

I would call and collect more on the river.
 
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GWU73

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Raise all in. You have the nuts, but any red card is bad. That's almost half the deck. Better to either get it in good or it win now than to see a river with more action to come.
 
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GWU73

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Lol replied twice. At least the answer is essentially the same.
 
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