$200 NLHE Full Ring: $1/$3 Live - Massive pot with weak pair

6

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This was a $1/$3 live game played at my local casino. My read on villain is that he's a decent reg, at least by low stakes live poker standards. I was really put off by his river donk shove (I was planning to check back the river if I missed my straight), but I didn't think I could beat much with pocket 5's. I was trying to represent a set by my flop and turn bets.

Hero (BB) has $600
Villain (SB) has $1000
Everyone else has between $200 and $600

Hero is dealt 5s 5c
Villain (SB) posts $1
Hero (BB) posts $3
UTG raises to $16
6 folds
Villain (SB) calls $15
Hero (BB) calls $13

~$45 in pot (3 players)
Flop shows 4d 6c 7s

Villain checks
Hero checks
UTG bets $30
Villain calls $30
Hero raises to $120
UTG folds
Villain calls $90

~$315 in pot (2 players)
Turn shows Jc

BB checks
Hero bets $250
BB calls $250

~$815 in pot (2 players)
River shows Kh

BB shoves ALL-IN for $220 effectively
Hero folds

What do you think about the way hero played this hand?
 
Trabendo_daze

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Why are we check-raising? You're most likely beat but we can't make anything stronger fold. I'd just call and try to hit multi-way. The flop is rainbow so all your outs are pretty clean. Also your HH is kind of confusing. I think you mixed SB with BB. SB's line is really strong here but I don't know what he reps other than a flopped straight which you block. Call flop, check back turn, and take your free cards. We can't make anything better fold and we aren't raising for protection.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Thinking about it, SB reps literally nothing with his river shove other than maybe JJ. Is it crazy to think we could call the river....
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Flop is meh. You're not getting paid when you hit so I suppose you can turn your draw into a bluff. If you think they're both cautious players, this is okay.

On the turn, villain has already called when you raised over two players. He's likely not folding to another barrel. Plus it puts you in a weird spot where you have to call a turn shove or maybe even a river bet because you're getting ~5:1.

Just check the turn. River is probably a fold, but I don't blame you if you call and hope for 98.
 
mbrenneman0

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Thinking about it, SB reps literally nothing with his river shove other than maybe JJ. Is it crazy to think we could call the river....
It depends how much we like to roll the dice. Any pocket pair has us beat. Any 6 or any 7 or any jack or any king. Although his fives block the straight, there are two possible straights. We can't really count any 5s as clean outs because a five on the board just gives our villain more potential straights with any 8 or any 3...

Why are we check/raising the flop and why are we raising the turn? You invested roughly 125bb into this pot. And now you really kind of have to call here. You are beyond committed to this pot. Definitely need to pay attention to pot control and spr
 
Trabendo_daze

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The 8 and 3 are the clean outs, not the 5 @mbrenneman. Sure all of those hands have us beat, but no one pair hand is shoving river. We have shown extreme strength, how can they think one pair is good? My point, and I think c9 agrees, is that his value range is almost nothing, leading you to maybe make a hero call.
 
mbrenneman0

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The 8 and 3 are the clean outs, not the 5 @mbrenneman. Sure all of those hands have us beat, but no one pair hand is shoving river. We have shown extreme strength, how can they think one pair is good? My point, and I think c9 agrees, is that his value range is almost nothing, leading you to maybe make a hero call.

yeah, i think im saying that all of those hands that have us beat are probably reasons not to raise the flop and bet the turn.

and who knows what goes through a live players head sometimes. i could definitely see a high pocket pair shoving here or even just top pair shoving. especially given that he is shoving 220 into a 380 pot, just about half pot.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Maybe...I usually find that live players lean on being too passive, missing value when it's there, rather than too aggressive and just spazzing. There are certainly people that I could see shoving one pair here, but not many.
 
mbrenneman0

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i think any hand that calls the turn has to be atleast decent
 
Trabendo_daze

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Okay so he has something when he calls the turn, draws and pairs and straights and sets right?

Now, when he shoves the river he has to have a reason, value or bluff.

For value, no pairs are shoving for value, and they also aren't shoving as a bluff. Let's eliminate pairs from his range.

Straights certainly are possible, but does he call 53 and 58 preflop? Also we block both of those so there are only 16 combos total of them. Let's discount those.

Sets are possible, but which sets? Wouldn't they be eager to get all the money in before the river since the board is rather draw heavy? Also JJ and KK probably reraise pre. I discount sets.

Draws: any 5 calls twice and missed, although there are only two left. Then there is 89 which is possible, although there are probably only 4 combos since it should be suited if it's there at all.

In conclusion there are very few value combos that make any sense, as well as very few bluff combos. His shove makes little sense, so that's why I thought it might be possible to call. It's not a fist pump call, but if he had more behind I certainly would consider a bluff raise on the river because I don't believe his story.
 
c9h13no3

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I agree with you that his story makes no sense. But often (constantly) live 1/2 players do shit that makes no sense. So yeah, he's repping like, K7? But he's probably just like "I need to be aggressive, all in!" The pot odds make it a little more enticing.

Also, since it's live, you can use tells here. New players will often look at their hand if they have a straight draw (it's hard to count 5 in a row man). So if villain looked at his hand on the flop, and then proceeded to play this way, I'd be more inclined to believe he had a straight draw.
 
Trabendo_daze

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I do agree c9, sometimes people are like **** it there is tons of money out there and I don't know what to do now so all in. This factor makes you lean towards a fold for sure because we need to beat the random hands that do this.
 
TimovieMan

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I like the flop check/raise, but once you're called, you're going to be beat most of the time.

Check the turn through and then decide on the river if you're calling his bet unimproved or not.
 
6

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After I folded, the villain flipped over a Queen and told the dealer that only he was allowed to see what the other card was. A few minutes later, the player claimed that the other card was a 4 (so he had Q4) and the dealer confirmed his story. I'm wondering if dealers would ever lie to players or if you think the dealer was actually telling the truth here?

I asked the villain "wtf were you doing with Q4?!" and he told me "when you bet so much on the flop and turn, it looked like you were just trying to scare me out of the pot. You'd never bet that much with a set. So I used the King as a scare card." I got so frustrated hearing him say that because I definitely would've bet that much if I had a set and also the K did not scare me in any way. There's no reason to think I wouldn't choose exactly the same bet sizing with a set there. I wish I did have a set just to prove him wrong. Even worse is that a few minutes later, he completely contradicted himself by saying "if you had a set you would've gone all-in on the turn". So what, he thinks that $250 is too much to bet but now shoving $470 is okay?

I wish I had more time to think things through on the river because his line made no sense but I got the clock called on me after like 10 seconds. At my casino, the $1/$2 and $1/$3 games are "turbo" format which means you basically get 20 seconds per street to make a decision, which really sucks when you're playing a huge pot like this and getting rushed to call or fold. I think if I had more time to really calculate my pot odds and think things through, I could've made the hero call. But I still don't know if my pair was actually good here or if the villain was just full of shit and had a hand like QQ instead.

Do you believe that the villain could have Q4 here or was he lying and was the dealer in on it? I know that he had Qx because he flipped over a Queen, but I would've thought that Q5, Q7, Q8 or QQ would make far more sense than Q4.
 
mbrenneman0

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Anything is possible. Did it seem like a good dealer or was too involved in the game, inattentive or anything like that? I think a good dealer should have insisted not to comment on cards that were mucked. I think its possible that he had q4. You really can't overestimate just how bad live players are... But I think you put yourself in a pickle by inflating the pot so much with a weak hand

Also I think its absolutely horrible etiquette on your opponents part to involve the dealer in any kind of strategic or psychological metagaming outside of the dealers actual responsibilities.
 
Trabendo_daze

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The dealer probably isn't lying about anything, but he shouldn't get involved, that's pretty ridiculous. I think the issue with the hand comes down to the flop check-raise, personally. I'm really not a fan, but I guess there's some dissent, so oh well.

If the guy had Q4 he is god awful and I'd run to play with him whenever possible.
 
IPlay

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Do you get the clock called on your often? Is villain a good tipper, are you?

The dealer will for sure just agree with the villain just to move on with the game and keep the players happy and keep his tips coming in.

Also to the people saying the dealer is out of line because he responded back to a player, lmao, have you ever played in a casino?

All in all I think they are lying, old live players love to lie about their hands to tilt you. They just talk to try and get under your skin, same reason he mentioned your bet size. If you bet smaller he would of said "well I was priced in!!!" you bet large he says "Oh, it looked like you wanted me to fold"

Moral of the story, live donks are idiots and lie and try to justify everything that do no matter how idiotic their logic is. (especially to us young guys because they dislike us for obvious reasons)
 
mbrenneman0

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Also to the people saying the dealer is out of line because he responded back to a player, lmao, have you ever played in a casino?

Yeah, and the best dealer there would not comment on the gameplay. Even when asked who raised preflop, he responded by saying "I can't answer, you'll have to ask one of the players"

Most dealers aren't that professional, but I think that is an example of what dealers should strive for.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Just because it happens often doesn't me its not cool, brah
 
Trabendo_daze

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Just because it happens often doesn't mean its all good, brah
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

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Wow, sick story considering he had Q4 in the end. I'm assuming you became a bit results orientated and that finding out you had him beat made you create this post and ask us what the right play was.

I don't hate your flop raise but just know why you're making the play.. It seems like you're trying to get a bigger pocket pair to fold, something that isn't often going to happen on this low board.. With that being said I would just call the $30 and make things a bit easier on myself. As played though, I would most definitely check the turn, as he is not folding anything on the turn that he's calling with on the flop.

So far as the river is concerned you just have to accept that he is playing extremely funky and he got one over on you. If you call there in the long run it will be negative ev. Although he can have 98, he almost never has anything like A5 as you have 55 (for blockers), and 98 should be folding on most turns. Once again we're talking about rational players here and that's not what he is, but that's why it's always important to know your opponent!
 
LoCcO_OhNo

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Why are we check-raising? You're most likely beat but we can't make anything stronger fold. I'd just call and try to hit multi-way. The flop is rainbow so all your outs are pretty clean. Also your HH is kind of confusing. I think you mixed SB with BB. SB's line is really strong here but I don't know what he reps other than a flopped straight which you block. Call flop, check back turn, and take your free cards. We can't make anything better fold and we aren't raising for protection.

I think you are pretty dead on here with your analysis... given the action, I agree check raise is very bad move. I think a bet rather than a check of 2/3rds the pot illuminates the situation and controls the action... The turn bet reaks of desperation to me and looks very much like a bluff...
 
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