$200 NLHE Full Ring: 1/2 Live - Rate my bluff, is this whole hand spew?

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c0rnBr34d

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Late night session and the table is playing very loose passive pre and drawing regardless of sizing. By online standards Hero is also playing loose but more aggressive pre than the rest of the table and much lower VPIP than most of the table.

V is younger loose passive with $240 effective. Has been caught out of line a few times. Raising draws and missing as well as calling down light against strong hands. Frequently calls rags pre but folds air to pressure while chasing draws for bad prices.

Hero covers and has been seeing far less flops than most of the table but has been coming in for a raise more often than most as well. Have been aggressive post flop heads up and more cautious / passive in multi way pots.

OTTH: V limps MP and action arrives to Hero OTB with Js7s. It's very rare to only have one limp in this line up and I have a ABC TAG to my left in the SB and a loose passive station in the BB who hasn't 3 bet all night. I'm not a fan of over limping here in position so it's raise or fold. I chose to raise this hand to $15 and expect to go 3 ways with BB and MP often. Blinds fold, MP hesitates then decides to call.

Flop (~$30): 8c 6s 2d
V x, Hero $20, V calls in rhythm. Perhaps a little large but for live I have found if we repeat our pre flop sizing it has much less fold equity against some Vs than increasing even slightly so in heads up pots I frequently use 2/3 sizing since it has more fold equity and the pot is already small since it's heads up so the exploit is cheap. I also only use it against guys who seem to call small sizings too wide. Expecting V to continue with straight draws and all pairs here along with some Ax and broadway over card combos.

Turn ($70): 8c 6s 2d Qs
V x, he has been frequently donk leading when he hits and this card hits our pre flop raising range as well as adding flush equity so Hero continues for $45, V thinks for about 10 seconds and calls. I did not think V was thinking about raising as he has shown some timing tells, he has yet to tank and then raise or tank with any very strong hand. He plays strong hands and drawing hands faster while playing marginal hands and bluff catchers slower. Along with the fact that he didn't donk lead I don't think V has much Qx. I think he's deciding if Hero has Qx. I think he's folding 6x and 2x here and perhaps thinking about folding some straight draws. I have V continuing on 8x (mostly 98 and 87 but maybe some K8 type hands too), 97, 75s, maybe some sticky KQ or over card spade draws that we dont block.

River ($160): 8c 6s 2d Qs 6c
V donk leads $50. This was very unexpected and Hero missed. What value can V realistically have here though? I don't think he gets to the river with any 6x and I don't have him on a Q. All the draws missed. I feel like he's capped at 8x or 77. He could have some slow played monster sets that boated up but our read was that turn was weak. Obviously we can't call down with J high. So we either jam or fold. We have bet every street so we are uncapped. V has chosen small sizing that may want calls or may be a blocker bet. V has $110 behind. We think four about 10 seconds and then elect to jam. Hero has not been caught bluffing and has only shown down top pair or better in large pots thus far. Thoughts?
 
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gustav197poker

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I would have played the same. The villain's bet on the river is too weak. In addition, the texture of the board indicates that the villain has probably sought a higher value street to negatively impact your range. Thing that did not happen, on the contrary now V must fold all: Kx; failed draws, etc. I think it's a line that would have played the same way.
Greetings.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Hey bros, what's up! I will comment here but I made a surgery today and I am feeling kindda drunk, sorry!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
puzzlefish

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It definitely looks like a spew especially when V calls down light against strong hands. In this hand he didn't raise at all anywhere, but only put in his donkey bet on the river. I don't know how sophisticated he is as a player, but in my experience this has often been a trappy line that players take to induce a shove from their opponent. I would not be surprised if you got called down by something like A6.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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It definitely looks like a spew especially when V calls down light against strong hands. In this hand he didn't raise at all anywhere, but only put in his donkey bet on the river. I don't know how sophisticated he is as a player, but in my experience this has often been a trappy line that players take to induce a shove from their opponent. I would not be surprised if you got called down by something like A6.
This is probably fair. V is not very sophisticated and hasn't been seen trapping. Tried to imply that with the donk bet frequency and while his calling is inelastic with drawing hands he has been folding to larger bets with weaker hands more often and bluff catching some middling hands but these were against smaller sizings. We have not seen V hero off a large bet with a bluff catching hand. A6 would certainly make sense but I think it's very rare that V calls $45 OTT with A6 putting us on essentially air when we double barrel. If V is calling A6 on this turn he's more of a station than described in my opinion, unless for some reason he made a read that Hero was full of it.
 
Aballinamion

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teeth issues

Wow, hope all went well!? Wishing you a speedy and full recovery. Take your time man.

Thanks everyone, it is nothing scary, I just went to the dentist and things got ugly, lol.
My teeth will feel better tomorrow for a comment and analysis, hugs!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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quant1986

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Think villain could have JJ-TT, AQ, KJdd,QJdd,KJcc,QJcc and sometimes 65s and 22.
Don't feel like he has a lot of natural bluff here. It is a weird block bet line and I don't tend to bluff villain who called down light.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Think villain could have JJ-TT, AQ, KJdd,QJdd,KJcc,QJcc and sometimes 65s and 22.
Don't feel like he has a lot of natural bluff here. It is a weird block bet line and I don't tend to bluff villain who called down light.
I'd agree if I ranged V the same way but even though these guys are generally passive pre they do have pre flop raising ranges. And this guy is always raising JJ, TT, and AQ pre along with some stronger hands. These hands also donk lead flop a lot in the rare chance that they somehow limp / called pre, last but not least even if he gets to the river with JJ or TT he has to fold to the jam right? Getting KJs to fold is a great result. QJs is possible but even if V has QJs that didn't donk lead and didn't x/r. Can he call off his stack after donk leading and getting jammed on by our bet / bet / raise line? Effective stacks say he probably should if he thinks we have any bluffs but V is not very sophisticated. Still not sure we can go for it when he only has $110 behind but I think it's at least close.

I don't see V calling two barrels with 65s either since it can't be 6s5s as the 6s is on the board. We could run into any of the flopped sets however but that's only 7 combos total and some of those combos will raise turn for value to charge the flush draw, so I think his value range is super thin which is why I decided to attack it.
 
Alucard

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don't like it that much since you block his folding range a lot. But considering reads & assuming he can't really have a strong hand here I guess it's ok
you also rep very little, overpairs & AQ mostly
 
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Preflop
A suited 3-gapper is a little bit iffy, when there is a limper in the pot. I would probably want at least J9s to isolate the limper.

Flop
Pretty standard C-bet in my opinion. You can not check back J high and hope to win at showdown, and there are certainly some better hands like K high or Q high, he can fold.

Turn
Also pretty standard to fire another barrel, when you pick up equity. Besides getting fold equity, you are also getting value from some draws like 97 and 75, which you are now way ahead of.

River
This is the interesting one. It would be a weird sizing to choose for value, so I am also thinking blocker bet with a hand like 8X, the flopped top pair. The question then is, will he bet-fold that hand? And I am not so sure. He has to call 110 to win 480, so he is getting an awesome price.

In online micro games you would never get a fish to fold an 8 on the river after taking this line, and even less so, when he was getting such a good price. Maybe people fold more in 1/2 live games, but even so it seem a little optimistic to me. You could actually consider calling, since you beat his busted draws, but its also a weird size to use as a bluff, and you block 97 and 75. So on balance I probably just give up, fold and say "nice hand sir".
 
Aballinamion

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Very hard hand

Late night session and the table is playing very loose passive pre and drawing regardless of sizing. By online standards Hero is also playing loose but more aggressive pre than the rest of the table and much lower VPIP than most of the table.

V is younger loose passive with $240 effective. Has been caught out of line a few times. Raising draws and missing as well as calling down light against strong hands. Frequently calls rags pre but folds air to pressure while chasing draws for bad prices.

Hero covers and has been seeing far less flops than most of the table but has been coming in for a raise more often than most as well. Have been aggressive post flop heads up and more cautious / passive in multi way pots.

OTTH: V limps MP and action arrives to Hero OTB with Js7s. It's very rare to only have one limp in this line up and I have a ABC TAG to my left in the SB and a loose passive station in the BB who hasn't 3 bet all night. I'm not a fan of over limping here in position so it's raise or fold. I chose to raise this hand to $15 and expect to go 3 ways with BB and MP often. Blinds fold, MP hesitates then decides to call.

Flop (~$30): 8c 6s 2d
V x, Hero $20, V calls in rhythm. Perhaps a little large but for live I have found if we repeat our pre flop sizing it has much less fold equity against some Vs than increasing even slightly so in heads up pots I frequently use 2/3 sizing since it has more fold equity and the pot is already small since it's heads up so the exploit is cheap. I also only use it against guys who seem to call small sizings too wide. Expecting V to continue with straight draws and all pairs here along with some Ax and broadway over card combos.

Turn ($70): 8c 6s 2d Qs
V x, he has been frequently donk leading when he hits and this card hits our pre flop raising range as well as adding flush equity so Hero continues for $45, V thinks for about 10 seconds and calls. I did not think V was thinking about raising as he has shown some timing tells, he has yet to tank and then raise or tank with any very strong hand. He plays strong hands and drawing hands faster while playing marginal hands and bluff catchers slower. Along with the fact that he didn't donk lead I don't think V has much Qx. I think he's deciding if Hero has Qx. I think he's folding 6x and 2x here and perhaps thinking about folding some straight draws. I have V continuing on 8x (mostly 98 and 87 but maybe some K8 type hands too), 97, 75s, maybe some sticky KQ or over card spade draws that we dont block.

River ($160): 8c 6s 2d Qs 6c
V donk leads $50. This was very unexpected and Hero missed. What value can V realistically have here though? I don't think he gets to the river with any 6x and I don't have him on a Q. All the draws missed. I feel like he's capped at 8x or 77. He could have some slow played monster sets that boated up but our read was that turn was weak. Obviously we can't call down with J high. So we either jam or fold. We have bet every street so we are uncapped. V has chosen small sizing that may want calls or may be a blocker bet. V has $110 behind. We think four about 10 seconds and then elect to jam. Hero has not been caught bluffing and has only shown down top pair or better in large pots thus far. Thoughts?

Hello c0rnBr34d, I am feeling a little bit better today, so I will try to help you with my poor online skills:

I don't know the dynamics of live cash poker, but it seems normal to raise polarized sizings preflop. Because you raised 7.5x vs one limper, making the pot grow with your bottom range Jack? (you started your story with polarization)
Is this the lower Jack you raise versus limper/limpers IP? If so, it is okay, but a very hard hand to play. I believe that when we go for exploitative sizings, Villains also tend to call more exploitatively both with strong hands and a couple o drawing/air hands, only to see how would you play a big pot in position versus a standard 'fishie' calling out of position with no odds, etc.

Flop:

You are letting notice ever since you raised 7.5x preflop versus limper that your intention is:

A) To make the pot grow fast

B) Put Villain/Villains in a desperate spot either Turn or River by shoving or betting even more higher sizings, turning Villain's capped range, impossible to continue paying. (theoretically).

Flop (~$30): 8c 6s 2d
V x, Hero $20, V calls (...)

I believe that in position we are going to C-bet a flop like this with almost 100% of our range. Basically any hand that you raises limper preflop would c-bet here, because we have position on our side.
This is not a very scary flop, no overcards, no flushes, nothing to be scared at all, and you go for a exploitative 2/3 pot. This is good because now Villain would not have such a great price for calling with whatever it has, neither a good price for check-raising flop and putting us in a very delicated situation.
This flop also combines with the bottom of our range that could be betting "for value" here. We have some backdoors, so we do have equity enough, against this particular Villain to be betting here, because a thousands of turns are going to be good for our range, and we must keep bluffing in the river when it comes:

A) Tx, Jx, a Qx, a Kx, a Ax, for example.
B) 5x, 7x, 9x,
C) Any other Spade

We have a pretty good scenario here for betting against Villain so thank you for being so attemptive at the table movement to capture such a delightful spot for exploitative gambling.
What is funny is that this particular Villain is capable of paying you with any 8x, 6x or 2x. It is capable of paying you with any pocket pair that it didn't hit sets in the flop. It is capable of paying you with a bunch of suited connected and suited broadways as long as a ton of Kx and Ax.
For this specific situation, your sizing of 2/3 in the flop is simply perfect, IMO.

The Turn

When Villain calls flop, its range is not capped, because two pair and sets have no reason to be raising here. Perhaps Villain's range becomes capped in the turn (if it continues paying our c-bet turn, because now some two pair types and sets would be raising for protection given the connectivity of the board).
As I mentioned before, a Qx is a good card for our range and we should continue firing here. I believe you go for 2/3 again here and this is a sizing that I don't like here, since it doesn't combine very much with the polarized story we began preflop:
We are Tight and we demand players to respect us on the table when we bet, because we are so balanced that we could be doing the same thing with nothing or with the nuts itself.
A great part of our range will need protection here, specially that this player loves "to float" out of position, we must take advantage of it and put as much pressure as we can upon Villain's non-sense calling range.
Given the size of the pot, 2/3 just give excellent odds now for Villain to continue with any Qx, any FD, any SD, etc.
In a turn like this we have almost, if not all the combos of AQo and AQs, which is a likely hand that could 2/3 pot and now comes for a double barrel turn. However, in the turn AQ will need much more protection because now we have here, the vast majority of the times, FDs and TPTK's type hands. Our bluffs are exactly only FDs and SDs.
As we don't want to give Villain no free-equity by the same token we want to put a lot of pressure into any Qx that it could have called, any pocket pair or draw, so we would go here for 3/4 pot or even 130% pot: when we do that both for value or for bluff (semi bluff in this case we are still drawing very good in some rivers, which allow us to put a very expensive river).
We love to polarize this turn, since we started polarizing preflop. We will have almost all of the nuts here, or the most strong value hands for this scenario, and Villain would have none. When Vilains calls out bet turn, it makes its calling range capped: either Villain called with some 8x, some pocket pair such as 77, although we are blocking some of those, the flush draws and the Qx:
Unless, that we believe that Villain is weak enough to be calling here with a set such as 88 or with a 6x..

River

The River double the 6's and Villain elects to make a donk-bet here, which is very, very odd. I also believe this size is simply inviting us for check-raise here or jam because now the pot had 160 and you have to pay only a cheap 50 for a pot of 210 (not including rake or other live taxes, that I have no idea about it).
Everytime we have a Qx we must be snap calling here against this Villain. For the times we have QQ, we have the nuts itself and we could be jamming. Hands like AA, KK, JJ, TT, 99, also would be calling here. IMO. Unless the SPR is to low and there is no difference between calling and jamming.
The only hands that we could be jamming for value here are 66 (That we don't raise a lot versus limpers) and QQ.
This is a very hard decision and I rather not to say what to do here, because it is simply too much complicated.
I believe that if we had polarized even more the turn this situation will not happen in the River. We must remember that J7s is the bottom of our range, because of this I don't know how to balance my entire range, if I am shoving for bluff a busted draw such as J7s or similars. I would need to include a way more large value range and bluffing range in a scenario like this and it would be very complicated for me to do it: I would be basically jamming any 8x, which could be A8 or K8 that I raised versus limpers, I would be jamming any Qx, such as AQ, KQ, QJ sometimes and Q8 always jamming, I would be jamming any 6x with a trips and of course all the 88+ combos, some for value some for bluff.
Also, giving that Villain gave us such an excellent price, great part of our range would not be bluffing here: if we had 66 and QQ and jam here there is a great chance of villain to fold given our action preflop/flop/turn. (depending on SPR of course).
Given that Villain is likely to be a recreational one, I don't see it folding some Qx for a river jam, never would fold a 6x, if it has 88 it has "the nuts" for him so it is also never folding and sometimes it will exploitatively call you with 77 or 8x as you said.
IMO, bluffing in the turn is cheaper than bluffing in the River, because in the turn we are still drawing for so pretty good hands and have a lot of fold equity and, in the river we have absolutely nothing and if we fold here it is not good for our image as Tight Players and we are going to be very hunted in very rivers, when Villain/Villains know that we have some cheap folds. (or we move to another table, sorry I really don't know how to play live poker, so I picture the situation as if it was played online).

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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c0rnBr34d

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don't like it that much since you block his folding range a lot. But considering reads & assuming he can't really have a strong hand here I guess it's ok
you also rep very little, overpairs & AQ mostly
Yeah I had mixed thoughts about this as well. I hated the card removal of blocking both flush draws and straight draws. I also hated the effective stack size and not being able to apply more pressure. I wasn't sure if that was balanced out by Vs narrow value range, strange sizing and live reads. My image also works in my favor here and river bluff frequencies are quite low in general in live low stakes poker. We are indeed repping thin but I thought it was enough at the time to get V off a marginal hand.

River
This is the interesting one. It would be a weird sizing to choose for value, so I am also thinking blocker bet with a hand like 8X, the flopped top pair. The question then is, will he bet-fold that hand? And I am not so sure. He has to call 110 to win 480, so he is getting an awesome price.

In online micro games you would never get a fish to fold an 8 on the river after taking this line, and even less so, when he was getting such a good price. Maybe people fold more in 1/2 live games, but even so it seem a little optimistic to me. You could actually consider calling, since you beat his busted draws, but its also a weird size to use as a bluff, and you block 97 and 75. So on balance I probably just give up, fold and say "nice hand sir".
Thanks, agree with your pre, flop, and turn thoughts. Agree I'm not going for this bluff in the micros as well. I suppose I could try to justify the move as exploitative as Vs stack off less often live and bluff raise river extremely rarely so population tendencies would indicate an exploitative fold from most Vs. For some of these same reasons I just never bluff catch this light live on the river. If he has a flush draw in a protected pot it's likely better than J high so we are only targeting missed straights most of the time and unfortunately we block some of them. I agree the standard play is to fold in this spot. Just exploring the merits (or lack there of) of jamming instead.

Hello c0rnBr34d, I am feeling a little bit better today, so I will try to help you with my poor online skills:

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
Glad you're feeling better. Thanks for your input.
Pre flop: This is a bit of a unicorn situation. My range will vary quite a bit depending on table dynamics, recent history, frequencies, who is already in the pot, and who is left to act. I occasionally isolate quite wide over zero or 1 limper on the button. Since I usually am one of the tightest 2 players when it comes to over limping and cold calling pre my RFI and ISO ranges get more respect than average. I'm not terribly concerned about playing 2 or 3 ways in position with a hand like J7s as I think I can usually navigate post flop ok. Online I'd just fold this hand unless the table was super weak tight. And yes, pre flop sizings at live 1/2 are ridiculous. My standard RFI is 6 BB and I go to 15 at one or two limpers, then I usually go to 17 at at 3 limpers and then 20, 22 as limpers increase. Obviously my range adjusts depending on the limpers in the hand as well but pre flop is a circus as everyone just wants to see a flop with any suited connector or off suit broadway or pocket pair or random Ax.

Flop: Seems standard, thanks.

Turn: Good point about sizing. I actually considered potting it but I decided against it for two reasons. 1 - Effective stacks. This almost forces Vs hand to raise or fold and takes away our ability to bluff rivers if we miss. So we either get the fold and win or we are forced to give up on the river since our bet wont have enough fold equity (unless we hit of course). 2 - I thought the 2/3 bet could get some folds from 1 pair hands that didn't like the queen or didn't believe us on the flop (some 8x, 77, 55, KJ, etc).

River: After all the discussion I think it's clear that this is NOT a text book bluff spot as we block both straights and flushes and effective stacks are too short. I went with my gut and tried to exploit a somewhat capped and or narrow value range in an underbluffed spot, perhaps over utilizing my perceived image and population tendencies. Long story short. Spew, lol.
 
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