$200 NLHE 6-max: TP on 4-straight board in 3bet pot

$200 NL HE 6-max: TP on 4-straight board in 3bet pot

Villain is a seemingly ok fish with my stats on him, but he's been a lot spewier this session. Seems spazzy. Folds %30 to cbets in 3bet pots, and raises %27 over a decent sample.

I squeeze because the original raiser is 40/20 and folds well to 3bets.

We're betting and stacking this flop always of course, but he flats.

Thoughts on making another call down here? What cards make you give up? This turn?

poker stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BTN: $201.50 (100.8 bb)
SB: $288.65 (144.3 bb)
Hero (BB): $265.90 (133 bb)
UTG: $138.35 (69.2 bb)
MP: $200 (100 bb)
CO: $177.30 (88.7 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with J♥ K♦
UTG raises to $4, MP folds, CO calls $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $22, UTG folds, CO calls $18

Flop: ($49) 8♦ J♦ T♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $36, CO calls $36

Turn: ($121) 7♣ (2 players)
Hero ...

Being OOP sucks

BUMP MUTHA****AS

seriously, just ch-f?

I'm thinking bet smaller (1/2 pot) on the flop to induce, and also to get away easier on shitty turns like the [7c]

I stared at this post for like 15 minutes the other day, and I really hate just about every line I thought of. The fish has a wide range, we don't want to play for stacks but we pretty much have to, our hand is often good but not enough to make calling down +EV. Idk, I think I just vomit and bet cuz whenever I don't know what to do I bet.

i probably c/f even though it sucks because he can have KQ or AQ, and a decent amount of the times they'll bet their weaker hands with showdown value here just because you checked. but he still might check back his AT/QT/QJ and could check the KQ/AQ to try to hit as well

i just don't see much value in betting.. i guess there's a slight amount from those QT/QJ hands because they have straight draws, but then what the hell do we do on the river? we can't really bet again, and if he decides to randomly bet with those because we look weak we're in a crappy spot again and probably have to fold. plus i doubt we get him off any better hands by betting since he won't figure us for many 9s and nobody folds 2 pair here when they can still boat up

taking sort of the opposite of c9s stance -- when i don't think a bet works as a bluff and don't think it really works much as a value bet either, i check

it really is just one those dumb gross spots that comes with being OOP. i can't confidently say what's best here

I'm trying to decide what we beat. What kind of range do you think he calls the 3-bet with in position?

The only reasonable hands (and I'm being careful not to project my own style of play onto his, here, but I have to come up with SOME guess) he'd flat preflop and call the flop with that we still beat is KQ. Maybe AT. And although I don't know this villain, there's at least some chance that he'll shove (or at least raise) that on the flop. QJs, too, I suppose, although that's only two combos.

... unless he peeled one off with an underpair. Do you think he might? If so, what would he do with 44 on this turn?

If he's somewhat tight vs. 3bets and doesn't peel flops like this with underpairs, then I think the best line vs his range is to check/fold. If he can have a wider range... Well, the stack sizes are awkward too. If he's not terribly aggressive, perhaps making a small (~$50) blocking bet with the intention of folding to a raise, and then hoping he'll check back the river.

It's a difficult spot for him to bluff the turn if you check, too, because he can't be sure he can bluff you off a hand. You could even have a straight and be going for a checkraise.

But that's if you want to get tricky. Check/folding is not a horrible idea here versus most regs, I don't think. Your equity sucks overall whenever more money goes into the pot. Forward the hand to Alan if you get a chance; I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about it.

c9h13no3 said:

I stared at this post for like 15 minutes the other day, and I really hate just about every line I thought of. The fish has a wide range, we don't want to play for stacks but we pretty much have to, our hand is often good but not enough to make calling down +EV. Idk, I think I just vomit and bet cuz whenever I don't know what to do I bet.

Click to expand...

this, pretty much. Including the staring at the post for 15 minutes part. We obv. can't bet/fold. Bet/calling is just about as lame, though there are a couple hands he might shove with we are ahead of. Still, I hate it. And ch/calling sucks because you have to fade about a bajillion absolutely horrible river cards.

I dunno, ch/fold is the only thing I don't vomit at the thought of.

dsvw56 said:

We obv. can't bet/fold.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's obvious at all. What hands would he raise with that we beat? If KQ was intent on getting it in as a bluff, wouldn't the flop have been a better time? Or are we afraid he'll bluffshove with AK/AQ?

I'm not sure what "seemingly OK fish" means, so it's possibly that his range is wide here. But it'd have to be really wide, AND he'd need to be aggressive enough to bluff this turn, for us to think that bet/folding is an obviously bad choice. I might not necessarily advocate bet/folding over check/folding, but I do think it's better than check/calling.

F Paulsson said:

I don't think that's obvious at all. What hands would he raise with that we beat? If KQ was intent on getting it in as a bluff, wouldn't the flop have been a better time? Or are we afraid he'll bluffshove with AK/AQ?

I'm not sure what "seemingly OK fish" means, so it's possibly that his range is wide here. But it'd have to be really wide, AND he'd need to be aggressive enough to bluff this turn, for us to think that bet/folding is an obviously bad choice. I might not necessarily advocate bet/folding over check/folding, but I do think it's better than check/calling.

Click to expand...

Referring to remaining stack sizes. Even if we bet 1/2 pot, if he shoves we're getting like 5:1 to call.

I'd like bet/folding over check/folding if we were slightly deeper here, but as it is, I don't see it being preferable over any other option.

dsvw56 said:

Referring to remaining stack sizes. Even if we bet 1/2 pot, if he shoves we're getting like 5:1 to call.

I'd like bet/folding over check/folding if we were slightly deeper here, but as it is, I don't see it being preferable over any other option.

Click to expand...

You're right. For some reason I thought he had another $100 behind if we bet $60, but that's not the case at all. Yeah, bet/folding doesn't really work. Unless we minbet.

Hmm.

Minbetting, as a total kind of "suck on that" way of screwing with him, might be fun. It's only $2. He's bound to be totally confused, and might just call it and check back the river out of sheer an overpowering sense "what the hell is going on here?" Clearly not a play we can employ very often (read: maybe once a year), but fun nonetheless. He's bound to start asking himself if it was a misclick; if we actually intended to bet bigger and... Yeah, not that I'd ever be able to think that up at the table, but I think minbetting is a pretty sexy play here.

F Paulsson said:

Minbetting, as a total kind of "suck on that" way of screwing with him, might be fun. It's only $2. He's bound to be totally confused, and might just call it and check back the river out of sheer an overpowering sense "what the hell is going on here?" Clearly not a play we can employ very often (read: maybe once a year), but fun nonetheless. He's bound to start asking himself if it was a misclick; if we actually intended to bet bigger and... Yeah, not that I'd ever be able to think that up at the table, but I think minbetting is a pretty sexy play here.

Click to expand...

Lol I love this play. And it might even be the best possible option at this point. Playing OOP is so lame.

F Paulsson said:

Minbetting, as a total kind of "suck on that" way of screwing with him, might be fun. It's only $2. He's bound to be totally confused, and might just call it and check back the river out of sheer an overpowering sense "what the hell is going on here?" Clearly not a play we can employ very often (read: maybe once a year)

Click to expand...

Wat?

You mean that all the fishes that i see minbetting oop are actually doing it once a year and hold it in store until I show up in person at their tables?

wow. funny thing is i think you are right FP.. that is probably the best play here. If he calls or raises quickly we have a pretty dang good idea of what's going on. if he takes a while and calls, we also have a pretty good idea. if he takes a while and raises, then we're a bit less sure.

never would have thought about it but in this situation it's probably the best way to find out where we are.

i would put him on pocket nines. but still fold to any ace on the turn alongside nine, q, seven.

The whole min betting thing is the 'Raptor bet'. After enough people watch David Benefield's vids on CardRunners, I'm sure it'll be the rage. And it can certainly work.

Going back to pf though...even if the original raiser is 40/20 and fishy, UTG he should be at the top of his range and KJo is a hand that can just be miserable to play in a 3bet pot OOP against a hand that will often dominate yours.

But you squeezed, and you're in a pickle, so the minbet might be the best way to proceed.