$200 NLHE 6-max: Super passive fish shoves 4 straight river vs set of Aces

This guy was a mega fish and super passive. 22% agg after a decent amount of hands. Even if he raises with say AQ/KQ on the turn, how often is he shoving that hand being that passive?

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 162.2 BB (VPIP: 25.88, PFR: 18.82, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 87)
BB: 113.63 BB (VPIP: 29.51, PFR: 22.95, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 63)
Hero (UTG): 160.91 BB
CO: 104.05 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
BTN: 77.69 BB (VPIP: 58.06, PFR: 13.98, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 96)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:club: A:heart:

Hero raises to 3.5 BB, fold, BTN calls 3.5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (8.5 BB, 2 players) A:spade: K:heart: Q:club:
Hero bets 6.25 BB, BTN calls 6.25 BB

Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) 6:club:
Hero bets 15 BB, BTN raises to 30 BB, Hero calls 15 BB

River: (81 BB, 2 players) T:heart:
Hero checks, BTN bets 37.94 BB, fold

BTN wins 116.94 BB

Why not GII on turn? Got to imagine with his stats he may not even have a 3 bet range so he still has premiums with sets and 2 pairs. Were you folding blank rivers?

IPlay said:

Why not GII on turn? Got to imagine with his stats he may not even have a 3 bet range so he still has premiums with sets and 2 pairs. Were you folding blank rivers?

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Yeah, wtf, he's calling a turn shove.

Yeh I gotta agree with shoving turn

Get a lot of calls from villain with sets 2pair or Kx hands.

And JT calls we still have outs to the nuts.

How on earth aren't you ripping turn?

As other stated get it in on turn, still not folding top set to a fish getting 5:1 on river. What J is he min raising the turn with other than 10J? I think its possible he is over valuing a worse hand than yours and getting this price I think he shows up with worse enough to make this a call.

for a guy who is supposed to be coaching ur making some pretty big mistakes yourself

IPlay said:

Why not GII on turn? Got to imagine with his stats he may not even have a 3 bet range so he still has premiums with sets and 2 pairs. Were you folding blank rivers?

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Because I saw him call some 2 pair hands and even a set (not raise). So him min raising was way out of character. With how wide his range is, KQ/AQ is pretty small. Plus it was a thoughtful min raise. Long pause before the raise.

I mean of course against anyone who isn't playing this passive I'm just shoving turn. 22% agg after 100 hands, is hard to even get that passive.

So you guys just think, shove on the turn against someone like this? Hope he's suddenly turning it up w/ KQ / AQ or ...

I guess when I posted this I assumed you guys would understand that I know what the standard play would be. I was looking more for the merit of making a tight fold vs someone who is basically never raising.

Mitchel Cornodelli said:

for a guy who is supposed to be coaching ur making some pretty big mistakes yourself

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Hehe... ya, it's probably because I suck.

I mean, I have no idea about the price I'm getting on the river and how to fit that into the combos on someone's range. Not sure you can even survive at these stakes in today's games if you don't have a really firm grasp of all poker concepts and know how to balance and get slim max value very well.

I posted this because of course the standard play would be to just shove the turn (or shove river to get 2 pairs to call)... but I'm asking about making a tough fold vs someone who is super super nitty.

I'll post results for this tomorrow.

Jam turn. I'm still calling river. The T changes nothing, in fact it makes it less likely he has JT. I don't think I've ever played against a player who is so passive I wouldn't GII on the turn or even call this river.

Ipoker lets you see results or did he show? Idk man, this short I just have to GII on turn if we both were over 100bb deep I could see calling turn and folding river. With your read of him not raising sets/2 pairs previously, I could see this being a good hero fold. Is a 22% agg basically a cbet here and there?

IPlay said:

Ipoker lets you see results or did he show? Idk man, this short I just have to GII on turn if we both were over 100bb deep I could see calling turn and folding river. With your read of him not raising sets/2 pairs previously, I could see this being a good hero fold. Is a 22% agg basically a cbet here and there?

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I just about timed out and folded. He showed.

Buy yeah, I bet you couldn't get 22% agg after 30 hands if you tried your hardest. It's pretty hard to do.

I honestly contemplated c/fing a blank river as well, and that's why I just called the turn. I guess the threshold for nittiness is hard to gauge (especially in a HH). Just thought it was an interesting hand in terms of how and when are you really applying a read. I should have specified that I was just looking to see how many people would really even contemplated a fold here vs just sticking it on the turn. How passive does someone have to be to narrow them to essentially only one hand.

Then again I've folded quads before too (and was correct). Ugh... this game is pretty crazy sometimes.

He did show TJ btw.

John A said:

This guy was a mega fish and super passive. 22% agg after a decent amount of hands. Even if he raises with say AQ/KQ on the turn, how often is he shoving that hand being that passive?

iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 162.2 BB (VPIP: 25.88, PFR: 18.82, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 87)
BB: 113.63 BB (VPIP: 29.51, PFR: 22.95, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 63)
Hero (UTG): 160.91 BB
CO: 104.05 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
BTN: 77.69 BB (VPIP: 58.06, PFR: 13.98, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 96)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A♣ A♥

Hero raises to 3.5 BB, fold, BTN calls 3.5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (8.5 BB, 2 players) A♠ K♥ Q♣
Hero bets 6.25 BB, BTN calls 6.25 BB

Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) 6♣
Hero bets 15 BB, BTN raises to 30 BB, Hero calls 15 BB

River: (81 BB, 2 players) T♥
Hero checks, BTN bets 37.94 BB, fold

BTN wins 116.94 BB

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You only have to be right about 25%, is he only shoving nuts when you show weakness. against all the sets and nuts of JJ, AJ TJs you are 62%.

He's mostly committed and hes hoping you have something like AK

Even narrow range of AJ, KK, JJ you nearly get your 25%

rhombus said:

You only have to be right about 25%, is he only shoving nuts when you show weakness. against all the sets and nuts of JJ, AJ TJs you are 62%.

He's mostly committed and hes hoping you have something like AK

Even narrow range of AJ, KK, JJ you nearly get your 25%

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I think you of all people know I know his range. What you put there is way too wide for someone like this though. Probably a pointless post because we're focusing way too much on the obvious. I was more interested in how nitty someone needs to be to isolate them to one hand. 15% agg, 25%, what other reads should we apply? Because if we add in even one hand other than TJ on the turn and we should be getting it in.

I think everyone here knows that typically speaking you're never folding this hand.

I think you made a very good fold. I consider it "boat mining" and I've done it against a super passive villain at 2NL who check-raised the turn when a possible flush hit and I had top set. I didn't want to GII on the turn because I believed him, so instead I flat-called with the intention of folding the river if I missed my boat. Fortunately, I hit my boat on the river, he potted it, I shoved, he called and he had the flush (as expected).

I had a similar hand to this earlier today and decided to be aggressive and go all-in ... he had AQ.


We can't just assume he has a jack and will only put more money in with a J..

Fish overvalue hands especially 2pairs it's what they do. I think you should've just got it in, we can say OMG he's passive and putting chips in he must have the nuts? NO!!! it's just not the case the nut part anyway, They overvalue their hand its what they do... Get it in and rub ur hands together.

Has a J sometimes sure... But really betting every street with that board how likely is the J turning up? I bet we get paid more than we lose overall.

Keep in mind, this guy is a poker coach. He's not going to post hands that make him look like a retard. Plus there's a certain ego brag about making a good lay down, or value-towning a particular opponent well. I've done it before. You post a hand as part instruction, part ego boost. Hell, that why we're all giving advice making the game tougher.

So yeah, maybe he is observing players better than your average reg because he's not 12 tabling. But most of the time, it's hard to narrow your opponent's range to just 1 hand.

c9h13no3 said:

Keep in mind, this guy is a poker coach. He's not going to post hands that make him look like a retard. Plus there's a certain ego brag about making a good lay down, or value-towning a particular opponent well. I've done it before. You post a hand as part instruction, part ego boost. Hell, that why we're all giving advice making the game tougher.

So yeah, maybe he is observing players better than your average reg because he's not 12 tabling. But most of the time, it's hard to narrow your opponent's range to just 1 hand.

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Ofc but even coaches make errors n want advice. Ive got the upmost respect 4 him but he will make mistakes

Thats life c9 ... when u know best n dont listen that will b their biggest leak but he always listens.. c9 wat bout u?

c9h13no3 said:

Keep in mind, this guy is a poker coach. He's not going to post hands that make him look like a retard. Plus there's a certain ego brag about making a good lay down, or value-towning a particular opponent well. I've done it before. You post a hand as part instruction, part ego boost. Hell, that why we're all giving advice making the game tougher.

So yeah, maybe he is observing players better than your average reg because he's not 12 tabling. But most of the time, it's hard to narrow your opponent's range to just 1 hand.

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Actually I was asking a sincere question. I can post a string of hands from every session if I really wanted to brag (wait, is that a brag? damn).

I thought it was pretty close in terms of reads and agg% to try and make that kind of fold. If he was 35% but I had some of the same read, do I still consider folding? I dunno.

Any ways, I could have framed the OP better I guess. Doesn't matter. I guess it's a harder discussion to have than I initially thought.

Aces2w1n said:

Ofc but even coaches make errors n want advice. Ive got the upmost respect 4 him but he will make mistakes

Thats life c9 ... when u know best n dont listen that will b their biggest leak but he always listens.. c9 wat bout u?

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I make plenty of mistakes, but out of how many hundreds (probably 1k+) hands posts have you read from me on here, and have I ever said anything totally absurd? Not knowing that normally you'd shove that turn on a scale of 1 to 10 to me, 10 being brain dead it would be in the 11+ range for me.

I guess I can't assume, but that's generally why I don't post anymore. You do get to a certain point w/ your own game that you understand your goals and what you're trying to do, and there's rarely going to be times where you really need someone else's feedback. Not saying it never happens, but after you play long enough, it doesn't happen very often. When I first started playing online, I posted on 2+2 and other strategy forums constantly, and I learned a lot.

I think flatting the turn here was good against a super passive fish. We should realize that he is almost never doing this with KQ, as he should be afraid that by raising with KQ here, he isolates himself against QQ/KK/AA and AK/AQ. He's also pretty passive, so that's adds another reason that he probably would raise KQ here. AQ/AK are possible hands he could raise with, but we also block AQ/AK so hard with our set of Aces. So I think like 80%+ of the time here he has J10.

I think river is a good fold, as I don't think passive fish are good enough to be value betting two pair here. Especially since we block AK/AQ, he can't have many thin value bets here. He's also super passive, as you stated. I also do not think he thinks in ranges, so he actually might be scared we have a jack if he does not haha. Maybe AJ, but AJ doesn't double barrel and call a min-raise OTT. Overall, I think this hand was well played. I would have played it the same way. Readless on Bovada though I'm jamming OTT 100% of the time . Unless we are fairly deep-stacked.

Actual hand for those who are really interested. Def was not a brag post. I'm trying to get back some of what I think I lost when I was playing at a high level, and that's trusting my reads and gut a little more. Not an easy thing to do, but imho all of the signs were here that this was the only hand this guy had. I guess if anything it shows the power of aggression, because if he's even just a little more aggressive, he gets paid here.


iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 162.2 BB
BB: 113.63 BB
Hero (UTG): 160.91 BB
CO: 104.05 BB
BTN: 77.69 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:club: A:heart:

Hero raises to 3.5 BB, fold, BTN calls 3.5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (8.5 BB, 2 players) A:spade: K:heart: Q:club:
Hero bets 6.25 BB, BTN calls 6.25 BB

Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) 6:club:
Hero bets 15 BB, BTN raises to 30 BB, Hero calls 15 BB

River: (81 BB, 2 players) T:heart:
Hero checks, BTN bets 37.94 BB and is all-in, fold

BTN wins 79 BB

BTN shows T:spade: J:diamond: (Straight, Ace High)
(Pre 0%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)

Hero mucks A:club: A:heart: (Three of a Kind, Aces)
(Pre 0%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)

wow nice read

passive stat was a good tell but id still have a problem with knowing what our opponent does with similar hands. But knowing set vs set is very rare.. it does make sense to fold

I just don't think you can exclude KK, QQ, AK from the turn, even if you say you saw him flat a set earlier. Doesn't mean he flats all sets.

And consciously you didn't post it as a brag, but you are certainly biased to post hands that make you look good. A little more than we all are.

Aces2w1n said:

wow nice read

passive stat was a good tell but id still have a problem with knowing what our opponent does with similar hands. But knowing set vs set is very rare.. it does make sense to fold

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Ty... I've actually been taking a pen and paper the last month and writing out how confident I am about a read in times when I think I can narrow it to a hand or two, and how that result actually looks versus their who hand distribution. It's the advantage of playing on Bovada right now. I'm finding my reads pretty darn accurate at this point. My goal is to compare those reads and how often they are at the top of their range, versus times I'm off and they had some other hand in their range (or something I didn't even expect). Kind of doing a personal analysis of how often I should be really sticking w/ my read in a spot, versus trying to have a more inclusive bottom range.

It's not something I've tried to do before, and it will be interesting to see how it turns out.