$200 NLHE 6-max: $ NLHE 6-max: Hand at local card house, live 1/2

Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
Hey all,

Here's a hand I played tonight at my local cardroom let me know what you think:

We were playing 6-handed since there weren't enough people to play full ring:
Hero has a pretty loose image after it seems like he's been stealing a bunch of buttons. Villain hasn't been at the table for very long but seems pretty competent.

Relevant stacks:
Hero (BTN): $225
BB: $250

Folds to hero who has KcKd. Hero raises to $7. SB folds. BB calls.

Flop ($15): 4h 10h 2d

Villain bets out $15.
Hero raises to $40
Villain raises to $85
Hero raises all-in.

What do we think of the line here?
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Total posts
2,264
Chips
0
Aren't people more passive live? Then that hand means trouble once you get 3-bet, imo.

Online, this is standard. Live, I think you can fold to the flop 3-bet. He has 22/44/TT.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
That line means ur losing big and winning small

You said hes competent. U treated him like a muppet.

He aint calling ur raise with T or medium pp. Play his range that u want to call him with
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
We think he leads sets here?

We think 2 pair is in his range?

I think the answer to both of these is probably not.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Your reraising a competent player who will fold everything bad.. and give u action when ur crushed.

Enough said
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
Don't mean to be results oriented Aces, but I do indeed believe you're wrong.

Villain calls and flips 77.

Enough said? I think there's a little more to be said.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
So hes not a good player?

Or thinks u whiffed with ak

According to ur image u did great cuz he obv didnt believe u.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
He stayed for the next 5 hours and amassed over 1100 dollars at the table over from me. Not that it shows he's good at all, plenty of fish can run up stacks, but it leads me to believe he's not terri-bad.

Frankly, I think people, even regs, forget to put over pairs in your range. He didn't even think it was possible I had JJ+ and reraised for value. I jammed because I knew he thought I was super light.

My friends and both of the posters here disagree with my line, but I just don't know what to think. I have run into this scenario a few times now and I think it might be profitable to jam against non-nits...depending on your image.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
A lot of ppl believe ur just trying to scare them off.

Thing is we quickly make assumptions sometimes and it costs us money so its our job to fool them and protect ourselves

My local card room would pay me off with any ten heh
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
Judging by this hand he either isn't thinking a lot or he is overreacting to you opening your button a lot.

I think the most likely thing for him to lead here would be a T, lots of live players seem to get really scared of flush draws and make big "protection bets".
I think when he bets out we need to make our plan there, we either raise to get stacks in or we call and get to showdown. Against unknowns and fish I would rather get stacks in, against good players get to showdown.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
I think I like No Brainer's response the best so far. The decision is made once he bets out.
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
I'd rather call the flop and raise the turn than raise the flop. Wait to see if a non-heart non-Ace turn card comes up and then raise. If a heart or Ace comes OTT, just call down.

Generally speaking, I hate stacking off overpairs on the flop in a 15 SPR pot. Do we really expect top pair to be 3betting the flop? I think you're going to be up against a set or 2 pairs very often here (and yes, fish at $1/$2 live tables will regularly donk bet these kind of hands).

You won this particular hand. That's great. But if you keep 4bet shoving overpairs on the flop in 15 SPR pots, you're going to lose money in the long run.
 
M

MinhANguyen

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Total posts
695
Chips
0
There are almost no combos of two pairs in his range, and it's really hard to flop two pair anyway. Also almost nobody plays a set like this. They will occasionally, but if you have a strong read that they do not have a set in their donking range, then stacking off is decent. I also don't think that many live donks are capable of folding a ten here, especially A10. NH. Lol I bet he put you on "AK" spaz.
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
There are almost no combos of two pairs in his range, and it's really hard to flop two pair anyway. Also almost nobody plays a set like this. They will occasionally, but if you have a strong read that they do not have a set in their donking range, then stacking off is decent. I also don't think that many live donks are capable of folding a ten here, especially A10. NH. Lol I bet he put you on "AK" spaz.

You'd be surprised. I actually recently saw a live $1/$2 player call a raise with T2o. And why do you think a set is never donking here? These aren't thinking players that understand that check-raising the flop is the best way to play a set on this board. From their point of view, they think you might check behind a flush draw and they don't want to give you a free card.

If the SPR was lower - something like 5 or less - I'd be happy getting it in on the flop, but not when the SPR is 15. And whilst I agree that top pair (AT especially) isn't folding here, I don't expect them to be 3betting the flop either. I think that the majority of the time, given the action that took place, the hero is going to be either slightly ahead (a flush draw or OESD) or way behind (2 pairs or a set).

I totally understand what you're saying about AK though haha. In the past, I've 2bet shoved KK on a 963 rainbow flop and got called by 53s because he "thought I had Ace King". Although the SPR was only 4 so I was happy to GII on the flop.
 
M

MinhANguyen

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Total posts
695
Chips
0
I didn't say never for two pair combos/for donking sets. I said almost never, as in 95%+ of the time. When people donk, they almost always have middle pair/TP with a weak kicker/TP that wants to "protect" against draws. Or they just bet because they don't know what to do if we barrel/double barrel/triple. It's just general population tendency, and if the OP had some reads on his donking range, stacking off with KK is fine here. Of course occasionally we do run into two pair/a set, but that's going to be pretty rare imo.

If they have a flush draw/OESD, KK is way ahead here except for 35hh/A3hh/A5hh. I am snap raising/jamming KK all day if they are capable of calling off with any FD/OESD.
 
Last edited:
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Also see a lot of live players flat JJ/QQ pre and raise these flops too. That plus flush draws vs the few sets of combos I think getting it in is fine.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
I recently played a hand live where someone donked 77 on a 245 board against my 3-bet TT. He bet flop and turn and I was so puzzled that I folded turn. He said that I needed to draw with my high cards. I learned my lesson.

This villain stared me down and said "I feel like you have Ace high" before calling, so Minh is exactly right. I think generally the fishiness of players comes up postflop and most are smart enough to fold T4 T2 pre, unless he's a complete maniac. Sure, Matthew I think it's possible he could have a set, but unlikely. So hard to make sets and fish usually like to slow play. Just didn't fit in. On a board where two pair combos are even possible I'm just calling the reraise (or maybe even the donk). Say we're looking at J 9 4 (J9 for two pair) or Q T 3 (QT for two pair), then I'm much more cautious. On this board I just can't see two pair.

This idea of "protection" against high cards is exactly why players donk and it makes 0 sense. If you think you are thatttt ahead I guess go ahead and check raise. I'm not calling your pot sized donk with two overs. I almost never am.




I didn't mention he binked a 7 on the turn. Poker iz fun.
 
T

thatspoker

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 16, 2016
Total posts
25
Chips
0
His flop play was awful, but yours was fine. Getting it in with 77 how he did is so bad. The best case scenario for him is you having a flush draw where you have loads of outs. Every other scenario leaves him with 2 outs at most. He was not a competent player imo.
 
B

beckyg89

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 31, 2016
Total posts
100
Chips
0
No free cards

I think itss good youre not giving him a chep turn to hit two pair or tripq- i think often on the flop youll get flaated by a ten on your reraise. also 2 pairs and sets are coolers on that board so i think its plus ev to get it in. what if u call- you culd find youre self having to call 3 barrels with one pair-tough guessing spot.
 
Mr Sandbag

Mr Sandbag

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
2,635
Chips
0
I don't mind gii on the flop. Two pair and sets aren't realistic. His range is probably overpairs he decided to flat pre with, Tx, and nut/combo draws. He's not folding most of that range.

I hope you adjusted your read though. Pretty clear after this hand he's not a solid player.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
Thanks everyone again - I'm really happy with this thread and the thought processes we have gone through. Sandbag I'm with you 100%. Heading there tomorrow and I know well that this guy will stack off light
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
I didn't say never for two pair combos/for donking sets. I said almost never, as in 95%+ of the time. When people donk, they almost always have middle pair/TP with a weak kicker/TP that wants to "protect" against draws. Or they just bet because they don't know what to do if we barrel/double barrel/triple. It's just general population tendency, and if the OP had some reads on his donking range, stacking off with KK is fine here. Of course occasionally we do run into two pair/a set, but that's going to be pretty rare imo.

If they have a flush draw/OESD, KK is way ahead here except for 35hh/A3hh/A5hh. I am snap raising/jamming KK all day if they are capable of calling off with any FD/OESD.

In online poker, I'd agree with you. Players generally don't donk unless they have either a moderate strength hand (second pair or TPBK) or a draw (flush draw or OESD).

But in live poker, I've seen players donk out 2 pair hands on the flop: one guy had an $80 stack, he called a $15 raise in the BB with Q7o, the flop came Q75 rainbow and he donk shoves his remaining $65 stack into a $45 pot. Of course, I had AQ so I snap-called and lost. I've also had fishy players limp-call then donk the flop because they have no idea what a continuation bet is and they don't realise that check-calling the flop is a valid option.

And generally when I 2bet someone that donks into me and they make a small 3bet back at me, as opposed to shoving, I tend to give that a lot more respect. I tend to assume that a flush draw is either calling or making a big raise / shove, not making a small raise. How often does a draw min-raise?

Maybe I'm just not experienced enough against these kinds of fish, but I totally did not expect the villain to show up with 77 here... so in live poker, you're generally stacking off overpairs in 15 SPR pots on low boards when 2 pair combos look unlikely?
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
@Matthew Southall, yes, but villain dependent. Honestly I think more competent villains 1. Won't show up with 2 pair here. 2. Won't donk strong hands, knowing that I will cbet this board.

Against random fish who will play Q7o, I will play more cautiously. Villain dependent, I think about their ranges and act accordingly.

To some extent, my assumption about his competence played into my correct analysis.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
I recently played a hand live where someone donked 77 on a 245 board against my 3-bet TT. He bet flop and turn and I was so puzzled that I folded turn. He said that I needed to draw with my high cards. I learned my lesson.

This villain stared me down and said "I feel like you have Ace high" before calling, so Minh is exactly right. I think generally the fishiness of players comes up postflop and most are smart enough to fold T4 T2 pre, unless he's a complete maniac. Sure, Matthew I think it's possible he could have a set, but unlikely. So hard to make sets and fish usually like to slow play. Just didn't fit in. On a board where two pair combos are even possible I'm just calling the reraise (or maybe even the donk). Say we're looking at J 9 4 (J9 for two pair) or Q T 3 (QT for two pair), then I'm much more cautious. On this board I just can't see two pair.

This idea of "protection" against high cards is exactly why players donk and it makes 0 sense. If you think you are thatttt ahead I guess go ahead and check raise. I'm not calling your pot sized donk with two overs. I almost never am.




I didn't mention he binked a 7 on the turn. Poker iz fun.


Your not raising for protection but value against weaker hands
 
Organize a Home Poker Game Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top