$200 NLHE 6-max: I 4bet QQ IP, and reg flats.

F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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$200 NL HE 6-max: I 4bet QQ IP, and reg flats.

Solid looking reg. I have a lot of hands on him, but it's unlikely that he has a lot of hands on me (it's the ID changing thing at party poker). Still, we're on a couple of the same tables, and it's unlikely he'd think I was horrible because I hadn't gotten out of line on any of them and my stats for the session looked pretty average (21/17 or so).

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HAND 1
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$1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
Poker Tools by Stoxpoker - Hand Details


SB: $200 (100 bb)
BTN: $228.65 (114.3 bb)
BB: $319.42 (159.7 bb)
Hero (CO): $200 (100 bb)
MP: $203 (101.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with Q
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Q
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MP folds, Hero raises to $6, 2 folds, BB raises to $18, Hero raises to $54, BB calls $36

Flop: ($109) T
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7
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8
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(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($109) J
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(2 players)
BB bets $75, Hero...

So when he flats my 4-bet, it's either AA or KK, or it's some really weird hand and he's tilting severely. Or he misclicked. Or he's not at all as solid as I thought he was.

I don't bet the flop because I don't think I'm ahead to begin with, let alone his not-folding range. On the turn, I really, really want to fold. Can I? I'm folding an overpair+gutshot in a 4-bet pot, which every instinct I've ever acquired screams "no!!!" to, but I just don't think there's much else I can do.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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If I were a reasonably solid player, why would I flat to a 4bet pf w AA or KK oop (who flats to 4bets w any holding oop)? Mixing up my play?

But that means that the board is actually really bad for us, cuz that eaves AK/AQ/fd's/sets/99 random crap as his remaining holdings.

Even then, I don't think I can fold here w overpair + gutshot in a 4bet pot, but I get stubborn in pretty stupid spots to get stubborn (usually when I can't figure out Villain's line)...
 
B

baudib1

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Gross spot. you have a bluff-catcher, and I doubt he's bluffing. I mean, do you really think he has AJ/AQ/66 here?



Board: Th 8s 7s Jd

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 14.860% 12.94% 01.92% 148 22.00 { QcQs }
Hand 1: 85.140% 83.22% 01.92% 952 22.00 { 99+, AsKs }
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Gross spot. you have a bluff-catcher, and I doubt he's bluffing. I mean, do you really think he has AJ/AQ/66 here?



Board: Th 8s 7s Jd

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 14.860% 12.94% 01.92% 148 22.00 { QcQs }
Hand 1: 85.140% 83.22% 01.92% 952 22.00 { 99+, AsKs }

I think my equity might be a little bit better than that, assuming he can have AsKs (because then he can really have any AK). That said, I would be exceedingly surprised if he ever flatted a 4bet with AK OOP. I'd consider that a misclick if it happened.
 
slycbnew

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FP, this hand's been posted for a while now, I'm really curious how the rest played out? I'm really baffled by the flat of the 4bet pf, it's gnawing at me... :joyman:
 
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baudib1

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I can't see what he can have other than AA/KK
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I'm a fish, so I decided to pay him off. I thought about shoving the turn but that's only going to allow him to fold his air (whatever air he could have, I have no idea) so I called the turn, the river was a K (probably the worst card in the deck) but by now I was committed so I called again.

It's only been a day; I'll wait awhile longer before posting results.
 
Sysvr4

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I think you're ahead on the turn pretty close to never. Even if we assume he'll 3-bet/call with 99-JJ (which is a very loose assumption), you're behind all of those by the turn.

The only thing you can reasonably beat is AK, and if he plays that this way, you'll get all your money back and then some later when you give him a lesson in reverse implied.

I curse, grumble, give the finger to my monitor, and fold the turn.

I do, however, wonder at the wisdom of a small, defensive bet on the flop. Something small enough that we can still fold if he shoves. If he just calls, we probably get to showdown much cheaper... maybe.
 
S93

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I do, however, wonder at the wisdom of a small, defensive bet on the flop. Something small enough that we can still fold if he shoves. If he just calls, we probably get to showdown much cheaper... maybe.
We have 46$ behind and the pot is 109$, we are never gonna be able to cbet/fold or get to cheap showdown.
 
Sysvr4

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We have 46$ behind and the pot is 109$, we are never gonna be able to cbet/fold or get to cheap showdown.

Hero started with 200... should have 146 behind. If he had $46 behind he should just stick it in on this flop and cross his little scandinavian fingers.

A $25 flop bet *might* confuse villain enough to not raise and give you a free turn. It's worked for me before. If the river is scary enough, or villain has a hand large enough to call a bet with, he may even check twice. It's a longshot, and I admit I don't love it either, just a wild thought.
 
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As gross as it sounds (overpair in a 4 bet pot) this is probably a fold unless we have some read that villain overvalues hands/is tilting/calls light. Since we don't I give credit to AA or KK (KK not 5 bet shoving bc he might fold out QQ or JJ and only be called by AA and AA just trying not fold fold out anything and CRAI all flops) This is next to never AK (theyd shove or fold pre obviously, with the way 6 max is played nowadays probably shove)
 
S93

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Hero started with 200... should have 146 behind. If he had $46 behind he should just stick it in on this flop and cross his little scandinavian fingers.

A $25 flop bet *might* confuse villain enough to not raise and give you a free turn. It's worked for me before. If the river is scary enough, or villain has a hand large enough to call a bet with, he may even check twice. It's a longshot, and I admit I don't love it either, just a wild thought.
ooops your right, i thought this was a 100nl hand.
 
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baudib1

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the river K gives us approximately 0 equity in this hand, yes?
 
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the river K gives us approximately 0 equity in this hand, yes?

The river K probably doesn't change anything basically bc I don't expect him to ever show up with AQ or AK here (AQ folds AK shoves or folds)... but yea regardless the board is very bad for us. TT and JJ are there if they decide to peel, random "cute" hands (SCs) have 2 pairs or straights. We're pretty much hoping for 76s 65s 54s or Ace Rag suited. T9 98 87 JT all beat us (as does AA KK obv). We also dont have a read that villain is 1) tilting 2) speculative and will play these hands in 4 bet pots when we are only 100 BBs deep. Fold quickly
 
ForgotAboutDre

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I put him on pocket tens or AK personally. Interested to see the result. Pity about the King on the river. That's a *facepalm* moment :)
 
playsuji6

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I think he reads you as AK(suited) and he may hold high pocket pair 1010 ,jj, even 99 would have helped him with straight.
He reads you as AKs by your raise and he understood that there is no Ace on the flop, he checks so you followed him and he comes up on the turn with BIg blow.!!
You should have bet the flop,but you missed it and better fold and get ready for the next hand!
 
Deco

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AA or KK my arse. Calling with AA/KK is solid here? :confused:

I've seen this done loads nine times out of ten it's TT-QQ or AK
I bet this flop and happily get it in. We'll see JJ here more than we see AA-KK or TT imo.

Checking back isn't bad either, JJ will bet into us on the turn anyway and we'll still stack it whilst we can pretty safely fold if an A or K hits. Hopefully a brick will drop and AK can spew into us.

As played I get it in. AK is showing up more than TT-JJ.
 
F Paulsson

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AA or KK my arse. Calling with AA/KK is solid here? :confused:

I've seen this done loads nine times out of ten it's TT-QQ or AK
I bet this flop and happily get it in. We'll see JJ here more than we see AA-KK or TT imo.

Checking back isn't bad either, JJ will bet into us on the turn anyway and we'll still stack it whilst we can pretty safely fold if an A or K hits. Hopefully a brick will drop and AK can spew into us.

As played I get it in. AK is showing up more than TT-JJ.

The ONLY hand you can argue is okay to flat OOP here is AA (and some decent players take it one step further - too far, I think - and include KK). I have 5k hands on him and have the impression that he's solid. If he would show up here with AK or JJ, I'd immediately revoke that label, because that would be awful.

Flatting 4bets with AA isn't "standard" in the usual sense. It's not something you do versus regs. It's something you do versus opponents you might not know all that well and who you think are out of line with their 4-bets; the idea being that by 5betting you're shutting down the majority of their range (which you perceive to be bluffs) but by flatting you give them the chance to do something stupid on the flop. Obviously it's a much better play in position, and I'm not sure I've done it often (or at all) OOP, but it's the only hand I could forgive him for playing this way.
 
Deco

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The ONLY hand you can argue is okay to flat OOP here is AA (and some decent players take it one step further - too far, I think - and include KK). I have 5k hands on him and have the impression that he's solid. If he would show up here with AK or JJ, I'd immediately revoke that label, because that would be awful.

Flatting 4bets with AA isn't "standard" in the usual sense. It's not something you do versus regs. It's something you do versus opponents you might not know all that well and who you think are out of line with their 4-bets; the idea being that by 5betting you're shutting down the majority of their range (which you perceive to be bluffs) but by flatting you give them the chance to do something stupid on the flop. Obviously it's a much better play in position, and I'm not sure I've done it often (or at all) OOP, but it's the only hand I could forgive him for playing this way.

Have you got 4bet history?
I can't say I've ever seen this line taken by a solid reg before. I've seen people I thought to have been solid regs do this with JJ-QQ and AK even TT and AQ. I really would just take the chance and get it in. I'd just take the chance and get it in. Even if we lose the read will come in handy. Folding here is just plain unnatural.
 
slycbnew

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Have you got 4bet history?
I can't say I've ever seen this line taken by a solid reg before. I've seen people I thought to have been solid regs do this with JJ-QQ and AK even TT and AQ. I really would just take the chance and get it in. I'd just take the chance and get it in. Even if we lose the read will come in handy. Folding here is just plain unnatural.

This is also what I was thinking, it's just weirding me out that he's solid and flatting a 4bet oop - though I take it that in this case he actually did have AA, or you wouldn't still be labeling him a solid reg.
 
F Paulsson

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Have you got 4bet history?
I can't say I've ever seen this line taken by a solid reg before. I've seen people I thought to have been solid regs do this with JJ-QQ and AK even TT and AQ.
It's unlikely that he's played me much under my current nickname.

I really would just take the chance and get it in. I'd just take the chance and get it in. Even if we lose the read will come in handy. Folding here is just plain unnatural.

Here I'm a bit confused where in the action you're commenting.
 
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Can anyone who advocates getting it in on the turn please explain to me what we are putting him on?

AA and KK have us crushed while QQ chops. JJ TT have us crushed. 99 88 77 do as well. We do beat AK. Any "cute" hands that 3 bet and peeled for the bet (unlikely bc of 100 BB stacks and no additional information) beat us such as JT T9 98 87 (and more combos if we include suited one gappers) We need villain to show up with AK, or 76s <

With AK the $ is either going in pre or he is folding. If they are playing the hand they want to see 5 cards. Cute hands in 4 bet pots are unlikely bc we have no read villain is tilting or speculative to the point where he will play these hands in 4 bet pots 100 BBs deep, but even if they are considered there are more that beat us than don't

Villain shows up with a pair here way more than AK or a cute hand. We lose to all pairs 77+.

:confused:
 
F Paulsson

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Just to be super-clear: I agree with Zybomb. I don't think I should call the turn; I should just cut my losses and give up. An argument could maybe be made for betting the flop but I think even that is highly questionable.

Regarding solid regs flatting 4bets: Just to make sure I wasn't making things up, I went through my HEM database for this year and looked for hands where I 4-bet, wasn't all-in preflop and saw a showdown, to find out what hands my opponents were flatting with. In the case of regs, I had 15 instances, 8 of which were aces, 6 of which were kings, and once QQ (and that was in position). Then I had a big chunk of hands where awful players had flatted, but that's a different story, of course (and their hands ranged from AK to 99 to J9s and god knows what). Now, admittedly, my sample is biased towards the stronger parts of the regs' ranges, because I only looked at hands that went to showdown (otherwise I wouldn't know what they had) and if they ever did flat with weaker hands perhaps they folded the flop. If there's doubts about this, I could go back and include hands that didn't go to showdown and see if I could find instances where the regs obviously would have had to flat with weaker hands based on the postflop action.
 
daxter70

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Just to be super-clear: I agree with Zybomb. I don't think I should call the turn; I should just cut my losses and give up. An argument could maybe be made for betting the flop but I think even that is highly questionable.

Regarding solid regs flatting 4bets: Just to make sure I wasn't making things up, I went through my HEM database for this year and looked for hands where I 4-bet, wasn't all-in preflop and saw a showdown, to find out what hands my opponents were flatting with. In the case of regs, I had 15 instances, 8 of which were aces, 6 of which were kings, and once QQ (and that was in position). Then I had a big chunk of hands where awful players had flatted, but that's a different story, of course (and their hands ranged from AK to 99 to J9s and god knows what). Now, admittedly, my sample is biased towards the stronger parts of the regs' ranges, because I only looked at hands that went to showdown (otherwise I wouldn't know what they had) and if they ever did flat with weaker hands perhaps they folded the flop. If there's doubts about this, I could go back and include hands that didn't go to showdown and see if I could find instances where the regs obviously would have had to flat with weaker hands based on the postflop action.

does he show up with 99, 1010, jj??
flatting the 4bet is what i would put him on...:cool:
 
Deco

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Regarding solid regs flatting 4bets: Just to make sure I wasn't making things up, I went through my HEM database for this year and looked for hands where I 4-bet, wasn't all-in preflop and saw a showdown, to find out what hands my opponents were flatting with. In the case of regs, I had 15 instances, 8 of which were aces, 6 of which were kings, and once QQ (and that was in position). Then I had a big chunk of hands where awful players had flatted, but that's a different story, of course (and their hands ranged from AK to 99 to J9s and god knows what). Now, admittedly, my sample is biased towards the stronger parts of the regs' ranges, because I only looked at hands that went to showdown (otherwise I wouldn't know what they had) and if they ever did flat with weaker hands perhaps they folded the flop. If there's doubts about this, I could go back and include hands that didn't go to showdown and see if I could find instances where the regs obviously would have had to flat with weaker hands based on the postflop action.

My hands show the opposite. I guess it is a difference in stakes.
 
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