$200 NLHE 6-max: correct call ?

thirstyforcompletegame · Sep 15, 2010

this all took place in a live 1/2 game at a local card club,

It was the last hand of the night and i pick up 9h 9d on the button, I kick it up to $18 and i get two callers, the flop comes 9s 8s 4s , it goes check , check , I bet the pot, then i get min raised and third player folds, back on me.... the min raise raised all sorts of red flags in my mind and i said out loud "you really floped the joint huh ?" followed by the villain "I have a set of eights and dont believe you have a set of nines" this comment really supported my read that he did flop the flush, so the pot at this point was $108 and it was another $54 to see the turn, so i call $54 into a $108 pot to peel off a turn card, 3h (brick!) at this time my villain (I am trying to get into the interwebs lingo online,lol) ships it totaling $147.... I am getting a dash above even $ to call his all-in with ten outs. now i understand I need to be getting 2-1 or 3-1 to make this call but I decided to call the all-in, the river brings a Kh and he tables Qs 10s

uke:

I play solid poker 95% of the time, but there are hands like the one above sometimes i just grab my balls and go for it, how would you have played it differently ?

Pascal-lf · Sep 15, 2010

You are above even where's the problem?

I wouldn't pot flop FWIW, fish will chase draws regardless of odds and you'll probably be able to get it in on any safe turn/river dependant on how fast you decide to play it so you can make it a little bit cheaper to get away from in case a 4th spade hits.

Zybomb · Sep 15, 2010

This line in a low stakes live cash game is a flush a very large percentage of the time, however it can also be overpairs with a spade and smaller sets, along with occassionally the naked As

Your maths are off with the pot size though. Its $54 preflop before you pot it (unnecessarily big IMO), making the pot $108, he then minraises it to $108 making the pot $216, and you call ($54) making the pot $270. On the turn he now ships $147 more making the pot $417 and costing you $147 to call. So you dont have close to even on your money, you have just under 3:1 actually.

If he actually turned over his hand and showed you a flush it'd be a very close fold, since you'd be just over a 3:1 dog getting just under 3:1...but again it'd be very close and that's with him showing you a flush. Add to it that villain can have smaller sets, overpairs with a spade and the naked As as well this becomes a very easy call.... even if this entire non flush range only shows up once in a while it's still enough to sway towards a call... remember if he SHOWED you a flush, it'd still be close, but would be a fold

Zybomb · Sep 15, 2010

Pascal LeFiscal said:
I wouldn't pot flop FWIW, fish will chase draws regardless of odds and you'll probably be able to get it in on any safe turn/river dependant on how fast you decide to play it so you can make it a little bit cheaper to get away from in case a 4th spade hits.

I wouldn't pot either, but for much different reasons (balance mostly and also to pot control against flopped flushes) but to say that they will chase no matter what is so we shouldn't pot is just wrong... them chasing is fine for us and shouldn't make us bet less bc of it. Turns will blank much more often than they will hit, so if we can get (making up numbers) $100 of value from a draw why would we bet $50 and let our opponent make less of a mistake by calling....The times the turn blanks we can extract further value by making our opponent make a bad call, or otherwise price out a drawing hand. If the turn hits, we're in position so we can always check behind if he checks and if he does lead out we know we don't have the best hand so it's an easy pot odds decision to call or fold.

Saving money the 20% or so of the time the turn spades does not outweigh making it the 80% of the time it doesn't

Pascal-lf · Sep 15, 2010

Zybomb said:
I wouldn't pot either, but for much different reasons (balance mostly and also to pot control against flopped flushes) but to say that they will chase no matter what is so we shouldn't pot is just wrong... them chasing is fine for us and shouldn't make us bet less bc of it. Turns will blank much more often than they will hit, so if we can get (making up numbers) $100 of value from a draw why would we bet $50 and let our opponent make less of a mistake by calling....The times the turn blanks we can extract further value by making our opponent make a bad call, or otherwise price out a drawing hand. If the turn hits, we're in position so we can always check behind if he checks and if he does lead out we know we don't have the best hand so it's an easy pot odds decision to call or fold.

Saving money the 20% or so of the time the turn spades does not outweigh making it the 80% of the time it doesn't

Ignore me, I picked up some wrong strat in a thread on another forum recently and didn't think it through. Thanks for correcting.

thirstyforcompletegame · Sep 16, 2010

Zybomb, my math was wrong, thanks for the correction, it was early in the morning

when i posted, I have thought about how i pot bet the flop and i agree with you, pot control is something i need to be working on in those spots, thanks again for your angle on my hand.

Skidmark · Sep 18, 2010

if he had told me he had pocket 8s and then showed flopped flush, i would kick his ass literally.
is this ethical? even in casino?

thirstyforcompletegame · Sep 18, 2010

Skidmark said:
if he had told me he had pocket 8s and then showed flopped flush, i would kick his ass literally.
is this ethical? even in casino?

I dont let all the grey angles in poker get to me at the table, I just forget about it and move on to the next hand and stay focused.

Zybomb · Sep 18, 2010

Skidmark said:
if he had told me he had pocket 8s and then showed flopped flush, i would kick his ass literally.
is this ethical? even in casino?

there is zero wrong w this. Is he supposed to tell you the truth? LOL.

The most extreme example I've ever seen of this was about 3 years ago. (I actually went to another forum and found the hand discussion thread so I can copy and paste it)

5/10 NL

Player 1 raises to $50 and player 2 calls... HU.

Flop comes 7

4

K

Player 1 bets $80 and player 2 calls.

Turn comes A

Player 1 mutters under his breath that player 2 has been chasing him down all night and he has two pair .... he bets $225. Player 2 semi hears him and says "what? You have two pair?" Player 1 replies "you've been chasing me down all night, I'll show it to you". Player 2 doesn't seem convinced and asks "you have Ace King?" Player two gives a half frown and nods his head.... after a delay player 1 calls.

River comes A

and player 1 shrugs his shoulders and turns his hand up (in the "well what can i do" manner) immediately moves all in for $900

Player 2 asks for a count and begins the dialog. "You have Ace King?" "Yes....I'll show you" Player 2 asks him to show him one card then, and player 1 replies "ill show you both after you fold, I promise I have you beat."

At this point Im convinced this is an obvious bluff...like on the turn sure it might make some sense (he doesnt want to be drawn out on) but on the river, you have the nuts and youre telling him your hand and telling him to fold.....uhhhhh?? But then I get thrown off with the next bit...

"On my kids, I swear I got it"

(Hmm... maybe this guy legitimately doesnt wanna take the guys money?)

Player 2 thinks more and again asks him to show one card and he again replies, "On My Kids, I swear, I got it" Player 2 asks "Ace King?" Player one replies "Yea". Player 2 says so show me one....player 1 doesnt and says "I'll show both when you fold......"

Finally after a delay player 2 says ok....because you said on your kids Im gunna lay this down. Player 1 says thank you.

(This has to be a bluff....but would he really say all this???)

Player 2 mucks and player one goes to muck also...

"Hey I thought youd show!"

Player 1 slowly and begrudgingly turns over Qd 8d.

The table erupts with chatter and laughter and comments

Player 2 tells him that he's going to hell

Player 1 has a mental breakdown and leaves the table for 20 minutes, comes back like hes been shot in the heart twice and slowly picks up his chips telling the dealer "I cant play another hand"

Another player asks him if he even has kids? The table cracks up and player 1 sadly says yes. Player 2 tells him hes going to hell again. Player 1 sadly nods and says I know....

LMAO

Skidmark · Sep 19, 2010

Zybomb said:
there is zero wrong w this. Is he supposed to tell you the truth? LOL.

The most extreme example I've ever seen of this was about 3 years ago. (I actually went to another forum and found the hand discussion thread so I can copy and paste it)

5/10 NL

Player 1 raises to $50 and player 2 calls... HU.

Flop comes 7

4

K

Player 1 bets $80 and player 2 calls.

Turn comes A

Player 1 mutters under his breath that player 2 has been chasing him down all night and he has two pair .... he bets $225. Player 2 semi hears him and says "what? You have two pair?" Player 1 replies "you've been chasing me down all night, I'll show it to you". Player 2 doesn't seem convinced and asks "you have Ace King?" Player two gives a half frown and nods his head.... after a delay player 1 calls.

River comes A

and player 1 shrugs his shoulders and turns his hand up (in the "well what can i do" manner) immediately moves all in for $900

Player 2 asks for a count and begins the dialog. "You have Ace King?" "Yes....I'll show you" Player 2 asks him to show him one card then, and player 1 replies "ill show you both after you fold, I promise I have you beat."

At this point Im convinced this is an obvious bluff...like on the turn sure it might make some sense (he doesnt want to be drawn out on) but on the river, you have the nuts and youre telling him your hand and telling him to fold.....uhhhhh?? But then I get thrown off with the next bit...

"On my kids, I swear I got it"

(Hmm... maybe this guy legitimately doesnt wanna take the guys money?)

Player 2 thinks more and again asks him to show one card and he again replies, "On My Kids, I swear, I got it" Player 2 asks "Ace King?" Player one replies "Yea". Player 2 says so show me one....player 1 doesnt and says "I'll show both when you fold......"

Finally after a delay player 2 says ok....because you said on your kids Im gunna lay this down. Player 1 says thank you.

(This has to be a bluff....but would he really say all this???)

Player 2 mucks and player one goes to muck also...

"Hey I thought youd show!"

Player 1 slowly and begrudgingly turns over Qd 8d.

The table erupts with chatter and laughter and comments

Player 2 tells him that he's going to hell

Player 1 has a mental breakdown and leaves the table for 20 minutes, comes back like hes been shot in the heart twice and slowly picks up his chips telling the dealer "I cant play another hand"

Another player asks him if he even has kids? The table cracks up and player 1 sadly says yes. Player 2 tells him hes going to hell again. Player 1 sadly nods and says I know....

LMAO

he isnt supposed to tell the truth of course but he isnt supposed to lie either because nobody is asking him what he has in the first example, he starting that himself. Your example is different imo because there is a lot of asking, insisting, talking etc. going on. I wouldnt mind the second one very much. it happens, i understand but op's example is ridiculous imo.

Pascal-lf · Sep 19, 2010

In our local it's against the rules to tell someone what you've actually got - you can lie, but you can get a penalty if you aren't lying!

madtom1337 · Sep 19, 2010

Regardless of the banter, ship the flop IMO.

rssurfer54 · Sep 19, 2010

Pascal LeFiscal said:
In our local it's against the rules to tell someone what you've actually got - you can lie, but you can get a penalty if you aren't lying!

yeah thats actually true pretty much anywhere. many places dont enforce it, but its a general rule.

JOEBOB69 · Sep 19, 2010

Yeah i would ship the flop after the mini raise also.

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$200 NLHE 6-max: correct call ?

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