$200 NLHE 6-max: Classic semi-bluff at 200NL

Hi all,

I played an interesting hand on Bovada 200NL. Let me know what you guys think of my line. I really don't have many reads on these players, but none of them have done anything too wacky. I'd say that they are all standard-ish players maybe around 23/18/4.

Starting stacks:
Hero (UTG): $507.51
UTG+1: $618.07
UTG+2: $194
BTN: $210.30
SB: $206
BB: $200


Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is UTG with QcTc
Hero calls $2.00, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $10.00, Button folds, SB folds, SB folds, BB calls $8.00, Hero calls $8.00

I'd usually open for a raise here (or maybe fold on tighter days), but I decided that I'd definitely not want to face a 3bet so I planned on limp calling given that my hand plays well multiway.

Flop: ($31) 2d Ac Kc (3 players)
BB checks, Hero (UTG) checks, UTG+2 bets $27, BB folds, Hero raises to $57, UTG+2 calls $30.

My reasoning here is that on with aggression on multiple streets - I can certainly get an average player to fold an Ace or a King. Once UTG+2 c-bets, I put him on something like AxJx, AxTx, or AxQx maybe AKo. All of these things cannot take too much heat. On top of this, I have tons of equity against these hands with 9 clubs and 3 non-club jacks = 12 outs or about 47-48% against these hands. With villain at a pot-sized bet remaining (about $147) My plan is to shove all non-club, non-jack turns (figuring that I can maybe siphon more money if I hit)

Turn: ($145) Qs (3 players).
Hero bets all-in $147, UTG folds

I figure with this shove I can represent A2, 22, and maybe even JcTc. Even if he calls, I am most likely live to 2 queens, 3 tens, 4 jacks, and 8 other clubs (14 outs).

Do we think this plan is +EV? Or should I just call turn and look to value-bet my flush/straight when I hit?

Pre cant be +ev

Metsdude396 said:

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is UTG with QcTc
Hero calls $2.00, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $10.00, Button folds, SB folds, SB folds, BB calls $8.00, Hero calls $8.00

I'd usually open for a raise here (or maybe fold on tighter days), but I decided that I'd definitely not want to face a 3bet so I planned on limp calling given that my hand plays well multiway.

Click to expand...

No offence, but this is awful play and terrible logic. You should be open raising to a size between 2.5x and 4x. You should NEVER open limp preflop in a 6-max game.

If you get 3bet, just fold. It's as simple as that. Some hands are strong enough to raise but not strong enough to withstand a 3bet, and that's okay.

If the only hands you're open-raising are hands that you're willing to call a 3bet with (ie. you expect your Fold vs 3bet stat to be 0%), then that makes you very exploitable. You SHOULD have a Fv3bet of around 60%, so don't feel bad if you open-raise a hand that isn't capable of withstanding a 3bet.

And in addition to that, you are still at risk of a 3bet, even if your plan is to limp-call. If a reg isolates you with a 4-5x raise, then another reg bluff 3bets that reg (because he knows the first reg is only targetting you - the weaker player), then it will be a 3bet pot regardless. You can't avoid that. You say that your hand plays well multiway, but you had no good reason to expect a multiway pot to come out of this.

By limp-calling, you are playing your hand face up. You're basically saying "I have either a low to medium pocket pair, a suited connector or a suited one-gapper", because they're basically the only hands that limp-call. So now any good reg knows what kind of hand you have.

Plus you have zero fold equity by limping, when you had the chance to pick up the pot (1.5bbs) uncontested if you just open-raised instead.

tl;dr: never open limp preflop. There is no excuse and it's just weak and fishy.

To say that you should never open limp PF in 6-max is wrong, but it is true 99% of the time. One time a maniac was on my table isolating every limper PF with almost ATC. One time I limped behind with KK (I would have open limped too if no one limped ahead of me), and he makes a huge raise. We get it in, and my KK doesn't hold up against his A-rag. Also people don't 3-bet isolation raises and make moves as much as you think they do. If anything, people mess around with isolation raises a lot less in my experience. Your other points are spot on though and are very good advice.

I think as played though it's good. I think flop raise can be a little bigger so that you have about 70-80% PSB shove OTT. You are basically min-raising and giving him too good odds to continue. Also don't expect the average player to fold AQ/AJ here. AK is definitely jamming over your flop raise. If you rep J10c OTT, you are getting called down btw.

This is probably +EV but not by that much. It's also super high variance, which is something I really try to avoid. Losing consecutive BIs from being aggro to win small pots and not hitting over and over is not fun and can get pretty tilting.

Thanks all for the comments, I wasn't seeing any 3bets at the table so I figured that open limping couldn't have been horrible. But maybe it was! Honestly Matt, in my experience this type of play is not "horrible" as it hasn't resulted in me losing tons of money over my rather sizeable sample size. Sure it's unstandard, but if we justify everything based on game dynamics, it can't be that bad I really don't think. I think sometimes we need to be able to think outside of the box and not follow the "traditional" way to play poker which is rather nitty, and frankly should evolve. Now I'm not arguing that my play is massively+EV. I'm just arguing that calling it horrible based on the strategy that is commonly accepted isn't necessarily the most nuanced approach.

Also Minh I definitely agree that it's a high variance move and that it's kind of risky. However, just going by the types of players that I've seen on Bovada, they generally seem to be pretty ABC and could fold AQ on flop if not turn. I think you're right about the bigger flop sizing if I want fold equity. My idea was that check-min raising turns on Bovada almost always mean huge hands and that was what I was trying to represent. Using this logic I thought that I turn min raise would actually be scarier than a turn 2.5 or 3x raise.

I don't play cash often but when I did play, I would see players take this sort of line. Again I wasn't playing 200nl though (Not recently).

Now onto the actual hand. Well I don't hate It personally, but there are things to factor In, you stated that the range of hands that you are giving this player was "AJ/AQ/AK/A10". So If you gave this player AK (They flopped 2 pair), If you gave them "AQ" again on turn, they turned 2 pair, lol. So basically the only hands that you can get folds from are 1 pair hands, such as "AJ/A10". Also you're basically repping a set of "2s" because you'd basically be raising AK/AQ/AA/KK/QQ yourself, and other under pairs. So with that being said, the only had that you could potentially have In your hand Is "22" or the flush draws and nothing else.

Now onto the flop, when you check and this player bets, you came out with a tiny CR $30. So here, Is where I pose a question to you, If a player did this to you, would you believe them to have a hand, after limping preflop, not RR preflop, calling preflop, Checking flop, and going with the C/R?

Than to compound the situation, as you're now actually stuck to having to bluff your hand, you let out the "Donk bomb", lol. It honestly was a nice bluff (No Lie), but the execution of the bluff wasn't well thought out. I understand the point of "Semi bluffing" and that was a good board to "Semi bluff", but this one was tough to pull of as you were also OOP to boot.

Well done really but Just think of those pointers I mentioned

Naruto, you have some really good points. Specifically, I like your point that he hits two pair on the AQ part of his range on the turn. Maybe we could even go for a check on the turn given that he will probably be unlikely to bet after the check-raise. We had tons of equity against his range on the flop, so maybe building the pot with the strong possibility of hitting any club, any jack, or other running cards and getting paid off for it was not such a bad idea even without the bluffing plan.

Pre looks really really bad. Want to go bigger on the flop but it's hard to misplay a superdraw so post looks fine

Metsdude396 said:

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is UTG with QcTc
Hero calls $2.00, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $10.00, Button folds, SB folds, SB folds, BB calls $8.00, Hero calls $8.00

I'd usually open for a raise here (or maybe fold on tighter days), but I decided that I'd definitely not want to face a 3bet so I planned on limp calling given that my hand plays well multiway.

Click to expand...

Metsdude396 said:

Thanks all for the comments, I wasn't seeing any 3bets at the table so I figured that open limping couldn't have been horrible.

Click to expand...

Well which is it? First you limp because you don't want to face a 3 bet, then you say you limp because you are not seeing any 3 bets(Non aggressive table?)

Welp I think I should read over my comments a little more. I think I'm trying to over justify the limp which just goes to show that it is probably not the correct move. Looks like the limp is bad but the rest is okay villain dependent.

duggs said:

Pre looks really really bad. Want to go bigger on the flop but it's hard to misplay a superdraw so post looks fine

Click to expand...

If you go bigger on flop, and they call, wont that Just price them Into calling the "Turn Shove", since that's exactly what the OP did?

Metsdude396 said:

Naruto, you have some really good points. Specifically, I like your point that he hits two pair on the AQ part of his range on the turn. Maybe we could even go for a check on the turn given that he will probably be unlikely to bet after the check-raise. We had tons of equity against his range on the flop, so maybe building the pot with the strong possibility of hitting any club, any jack, or other running cards and getting paid off for it was not such a bad idea even without the bluffing plan.

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You have no F.E by checking but by playing the way you did, you maximized your F.E to the max. I like the way you played It, I just don't really like the execution In the manner In which you played It. Even though It worked out this time, how many times In the future will the same play really work out? It all comes down to your "Read", If you believe they have "2 pair", there not folding 2 pair, but If you think you can get Ax (A.K.A 1 pair) to fold, than blast that shit (It's all player dependant), and while some will fold 1 pair hands, other's wont