$200 NLHE 6-max: $200 NLH 6 max: KK on button vs a called 4 bet

Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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$200 NL HE 6-max: $200 NLH 6 max: KK on button vs a called 4 bet

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 22/16/7

Stacks:
BB with $239.10
UTG with $200.00
MP with $236.70
BTN with $272.60
SB with $303.15

Blinds: $1/$2
Site: full tilt poker
Dealt to BTN:K♦ K♠
Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
1 players fold.
Hero raises to $6
SB raises to $20
1 players fold.
Hero raises to $60
SB calls [$40]
Total folds this street: 2
Potsize: $122
Flop: J♥ 5♠ A♦
SB bets [$122]

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum

Villain is semi tight aggressive 22/16/7 over 70 hands with bluffy tendencies. I've seen him fold to reraises on the flop a couple of times. I've shown strength up to this point. There's just no way he could bet out like this without the ace. Is there?
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Sorry about the dble description in the title. Ones from me, the other's from the HH converter.
 
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bw07507

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Given that you have already put $60 in preflop and you say this opponent has bluffy tendencies, theres just no way you can fold imo. His bet size of full pot also looks stupid bluffy. Who knows what his range is for flatting a 4bet oop but Im guessing theres not a ton of weak aces in his range as he probably jams them preflop if he thinks your full of it. I think he has a bunch of KQ, QJ and other air hands enough to just shove it in. His whole stack is basically in anyways.

Edit: didnt see you were deepish. You're not that deep though so i prob still just say **** you and jam it in.
 
sky4ever

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I would auto fold kings here.He could easily hold AQ here.And as far as pot odds go, you`ve only invested 60$, and since he`s got you covered, just doesn't worth staking in another 200$.

Given that you have already put $60 in preflop and you say this opponent has bluffy tendencies, theres just no way you can fold imo. His bet size of full pot also looks stupid bluffy. Who knows what his range is for flatting a 4bet oop but Im guessing theres not a ton of weak aces in his range as he probably jams them preflop if he thinks your full of it. I think he has a bunch of KQ, QJ and other air hands enough to just shove it in. His whole stack is basically in anyways.

Edit: didnt see you were deepish. You're not that deep though so i prob still just say **** you and jam it in.

Since he had a 300$ stack and only invested 60$ preflop his whole stack was not in at all.I don`t think he would commit himself to the pot on the flop with a such a large bet without a big ace, after hero showed a lot of strength preflop.
 
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F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I wouldn't fold. I hate myself the times I'm wrong and he shows up with AK, but I don't think he will 2/3rds of the time (or whatever your break-even point is).

If you want more justification than just "FP wouldn't fold" I like saying to myself "gee, why would he bet here if he has an ace?" and call. I'm surprisingly often right, and you'll see 99, TT, QQ and various other weird hands much more often than you might think. AQ shouldn't be in his range, and while AK might be (some people do weird things with big hands when stacks get a little deeper) but again - why would he donk with AK? He's either crushing you, or drawing near dead so why not let you bluff?
 
Four Dogs

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computer room is mother in-law central which means I have about 1/2 an hour to between the end of dinner and her "beddy bye time" to squeeze in all my computer activities. Being as it is now 6:45 I'm in a race against time.

Given that you have already put $60 in preflop and you say this opponent has bluffy tendencies, theres just no way you can fold imo. His bet size of full pot also looks stupid bluffy. Who knows what his range is for flatting a 4bet oop but Im guessing theres not a ton of weak aces in his range as he probably jams them preflop if he thinks your full of it. I think he has a bunch of KQ, QJ and other air hands enough to just shove it in. His whole stack is basically in anyways.
I did say he had some bluffy tendencies but my opinion is based on a couple of hands where he has pushed back post flop and then folded to continued aggression. Also, he's multi tabling (4-6 tables as I recall) and his stats are actually pretty loose in that light.

I would auto fold kings here.He could easily hold AQ here.And as far as pot odds go, you`ve only invested 60$, and since he`s got you covered, just doesn't worth staking in another 200$.



Since he had a 300$ stack and only invested 60$ preflop his whole stack was not in at all.I don`t think he would commit himself to the pot on the flop with a such a large bet without a big ace, after hero showed a lot of strength preflop.
By bluffy I didn't mean stupid. I believe he respects my play and has got to put me on AQs min and more likely KK-AA, so I doubt AQ is even worth considering. As for the rest of your reasoning, I tend to agree. I don't see how he makes this play without at least AK. Infact, I put him on AK and only AK.

I wouldn't fold. I hate myself the times I'm wrong and he shows up with AK, but I don't think he will 2/3rds of the time (or whatever your break-even point is).

If you want more justification than just "FP wouldn't fold" I like saying to myself "gee, why would he bet here if he has an ace?" and call. I'm surprisingly often right, and you'll see 99, TT, QQ and various other weird hands much more often than you might think. AQ shouldn't be in his range, and while AK might be (some people do weird things with big hands when stacks get a little deeper) but again - why would he donk with AK? He's either crushing you, or drawing near dead so why not let you bluff?
OK, now I'm worried. If the 2009 wsop ME champion thinks a call is in order here I may have to put a little more thought into this.

I folded of course instanly and without remorse but not without a lot of pain. At the time, I didn't think there was much room for bluffing on his part and I think he felt that given the PF strength I had shown I might be reluctant to give up on a hand like AQs or KK making his full pot bet a reasonable value bet in his mind if he's holding AK.

I agree comlpletely that AQ is a nearly impossible holding for him but I'm surprised you would put hands as weak as 99-QQ in his range. I understand that your assessment is only within the context of my narrow description of his playing style but even so, he's got to put me within a VERY limited range of hands of which KK is only a small part. If he himself were not holding an ace could anyone make this kind of play? In my mind no. I read confidence into bet, not desperation despite it's size. That said, I believe he would have checked it back to me had he held AA which the way I saw it pretty much left him with specifically AK. I don't think his play was optimal however. His bet was way too big considering that I still could have held AA. In his position, assuming I had AK, I would have bet about 1/2 the pot to see how the button responded. I may have even folded that to a shove.
 
F Paulsson

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Anecdotal evidence sucks, but the last time I had someone donk-shove the flop after flatting a 4-bet OOP, they did it with 88 on a K-Q-J board. Also, for what it's worth, if it's between flatting a 4bet with TT and flatting it with AK, the former is a much, much less awful play than the latter.

That aside, my basic argument hinges on him knowing what he's doing but not being very very solid. The way decent players (ought to) think, shoving AK here will only get called by better (or a split) and fold out worse. If he's outlevelling you - or, let's face it, me - then he's shoving AK because he knows I can talk myself into calling with QQ/KK.
 
ImolAyrton

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3 bet him on the flop.. If he calls or 4bet you or if he moves all in, than you should fold
 
Four Dogs

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3 bet him on the flop.. If he calls or 4bet you or if he moves all in, than you should fold
Do you think that any meaningfull raise on the flop would pot commit me? He did come out firing a full pot bet. Not much left in the wallet after that.
 
trewtrew

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Im shoving preflop in this situation as i see not point in seeing the flop. If ur worried about AA, then ur calling $60 to try and hit a 2 outer whixh is a bad play, and too many people tend to overated hands such as AK and AQ these days so most of the time u will be up against these hands. However, playing like u did, the flop is a check/fold for me as u are beating aboslutely nothing. AK, AQ or JJ has u dead to 1 or 2 outs, so just fold and movve on to the next one. Very nice post!!!
 
sky4ever

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Im shoving preflop in this situation as i see not point in seeing the flop. If ur worried about AA, then ur calling $60 to try and hit a 2 outer whixh is a bad play, and too many people tend to overated hands such as AK and AQ these days so most of the time u will be up against these hands. However, playing like u did, the flop is a check/fold for me as u are beating aboslutely nothing. AK, AQ or JJ has u dead to 1 or 2 outs, so just fold and movve on to the next one. Very nice post!!!

how can you even consider shoving deepstack after a pf 3 bet ? or you`re one of those guys who bets 300$ in a 20$ pot ?
 
WVHillbilly

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AK is even more unlikely because we hold 2 of the kings. I think if you take AQ out of his range you can't fold.
 
vanquish

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i don't fold here because **** him. if he really flats Ax preflop and then donks full pot then i'm probably salivating at the thought of all the money i'm going to win from him later
 
Four Dogs

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Im shoving preflop in this situation as i see not point in seeing the flop. If ur worried about AA, then ur calling $60 to try and hit a 2 outer whixh is a bad play, and too many people tend to overated hands such as AK and AQ these days so most of the time u will be up against these hands. However, playing like u did, the flop is a check/fold for me as u are beating aboslutely nothing. AK, AQ or JJ has u dead to 1 or 2 outs, so just fold and movve on to the next one. Very nice post!!!
I wasn't worried about AA. I gave him the opportunity to shove pf and he didn't take it. He did not have AA. There was absolutly no reason for me to shove this as I actually wanted him to call. With KK I've got to assume I have the best hand and that in all likelyhood it remain so after the flop. This just happend to be my nightmare flop.
AK is even more unlikely because we hold 2 of the kings. I think if you take AQ out of his range you can't fold.
True, but sometimes all the evidence points towards a particular hand even when it's unlikely. At the time I felt very certain that he has AK. If it was just one bet to call I probably would have done so, but if I called that bet in all likelyhood I would have faced bets on the turn and river as well. I might just as well shove.

i don't fold here because **** him. if he really flats Ax preflop and then donks full pot then i'm probably salivating at the thought of all the money i'm going to win from him later
I actually did finish ahead this session.
 
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