$200 NL O8 Full Ring: was this a bad shove?

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bush2008

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pokerstars Game #38327595176: Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit ($1/$2 USD) - 2010/01/17 20:05:00 ET
Table 'Chloe VI' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: NoSLOUCH ($197 in chips)
Seat 2: HEADS0RTA1LS ($95.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Veron7777 ($173.15 in chips)
Seat 4: seemsIwin ($177.85 in chips)
Seat 5: GrnGarcias ($57.10 in chips)
Seat 6: fanilicker ($226.30 in chips)
Seat 7: obrien193 ($50.85 in chips)
Seat 8: AngryFish ($38 in chips)
Seat 9: goforlowonly ($33.10 in chips)
Veron7777: posts small blind $1
seemsIwin: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to goforlowonly [3d 4h 5c 2c]
GrnGarcias: calls $2
fanilicker: folds
obrien193: calls $2
AngryFish: folds
goforlowonly: calls $2
NoSLOUCH: calls $2
HEADS0RTA1LS: folds
fanilicker leaves the table
Nevarteikt joins the table at seat #6
Veron7777: folds
seemsIwin: checks
*** FLOP *** [6c 5d Qh]
seemsIwin: checks
GrnGarcias: checks
obrien193: checks
goforlowonly: checks
NoSLOUCH: checks
*** TURN *** [6c 5d Qh] [6s]
seemsIwin: checks
GrnGarcias: checks
obrien193: checks
goforlowonly: checks
NoSLOUCH: checks
*** RIVER *** [6c 5d Qh 6s] [4s]
seemsIwin: checks
GrnGarcias: checks
obrien193: checks
goforlowonly: bets $31.10 and is all-in
 
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bush2008

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i don't expect to lose both halves when everyone checks to me on the river, and think if i dont get called i wont get beat on one end.
 
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slycbnew

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I made a couple of edits to remove results from the OP, hope you don't mind. Hand analysis is much better if readers don't know what the results are, it biases the analysis. https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...lysis-read-before-posting-168591/#post1387199

Here's a good hand converter (saw your post in the linked thread): http://www.handconverter.com/

I don't think your logic is incorrect here, though I'm not keen on the shove, would prefer a 2/3 to full psb - but given stack size, the shove's not unreasonable either.
 
Double-A

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i don't expect to lose both halves when everyone checks to me on the river, and think if i dont get called i wont get beat on one end.

$200 is over my head but...

I don't think we should be playing for half pots and certainly not risking our stack for them.

What calls?

And why do we only have $33?
 
slycbnew

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Checked around to us, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a bet may drive out A3xx and/or 78xx?

You're right, A2xx is never going away, but it's weird that A2 wouldn't have bet, and fh's are never going away, but again weird that 6xxx wouldn't bet the turn, and weird that any other fh wouldn't have bet the river.

One of those spots where I think we definitely could have second best hands both ways, but I don't think it's a bad place to make a bet when checked around like that.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

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I think your all in bet is a bit much at the end here. If you are going to be called it will be by someone who has you beat. Better a pot size bet here. You don't have the nut low or the nut high. Most will sit on the nuts till the end hoping for a play like this.
 
slycbnew

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Deeper stacked, if you think the bet is ok, this is a bet/fold, right? We can't call any raise from any position unless we have a read that that player is a spazz AND everyone else folds before it gets back to us, which is extremely unlikely?
 
Double-A

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One of those spots where I think we definitely could have second best hands both ways, but I don't think it's a bad place to make a bet when checked around like that.

I don't think it's a "bad" place but I do think it's marginal. I think some problems with betting are: the pot is small, when we get called/we aren't scooping, we're multi-way, and there's a player left to act.

I can't see risking $33 to win $11 without the nut "something". And I can't see hands that have us beat one way folding to $8-$11 bets. What do we do when we get raised? Call?

I think the real problems we're facing run "deeper" than the specifics of this hand into what I'd call Hold'em thinking in an Omaha game. Our goals in big bet Omaha games should be scooping pots and winning stacks. Not picking up small pots in marginal situations.
 
slycbnew

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I don't think it's a "bad" place but I do think it's marginal. I think some problems with betting are: the pot is small, when we get called/we aren't scooping, we're multi-way, and there's a player left to act.

I can't see risking $33 to win $11 without the nut "something". And I can't see hands that have us beat one way folding to $8-$11 bets. What do we do when we get raised? Call?

I think the real problems we're facing run "deeper" than the specifics of this hand into what I'd call Hold'em thinking in an Omaha game. Our goals in big bet Omaha games should be scooping pots and winning stacks. Not picking up small pots in marginal situations.

I agree w you that we should be looking for a scoop, and agree that a bet here is marginal. I'm not viewing betting here as a means to split the pot, it'd have to be w the intent of scooping the pot after everyone checks to us by getting both better hands to fold if the better hands are marginal (A3xx type hands and 78xx type hands) - the idea that we could split the pot is a fallback if one way or the other we're dominated and get called (A2xx may not raise out of fear of being quartered, a fh should raise, unless it's a lousy fh that's afraid of a better fh). But the idea is to represent a hand like A26x, which might get better hands to fold (and might not).

If they aren't marginal (i.e., A2xx and a fh), we're going to get raised and we're going to have to fold I think - this play would really be better w a deep stack than a short stack, that's why I think the shove as a ss isn't nec bad here - like BBB, I think this should be a 2/3psb to full psb, and I def think it's a bet/fold.
 
Double-A

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I'm not viewing betting here as a means to split the pot, it'd have to be w the intent of scooping the pot after everyone checks to us by getting both better hands to fold if the better hands are marginal (A3xx type hands and 78xx type hands) - the idea that we could split the pot is a fallback if one way or the other we're dominated and get called (A2xx may not raise out of fear of being quartered, a fh should raise, unless it's a lousy fh that's afraid of a better fh). But the idea is to represent a hand like A26x, which might get better hands to fold (and might not).

If they aren't marginal (i.e., A2xx and a fh), we're going to get raised and we're going to have to fold I think - this play would really be better w a deep stack than a short stack, that's why I think the shove as a ss isn't nec bad here - like BBB, I think this should be a 2/3psb to full psb, and I def think it's a bet/fold.

Check river:

If nobody has anything at showdown, we scoop. +$11

If someone is passively playing a better low or a straight, we split. +$5.50

If 2 players are passively playing 2nd nut highs/lows, we lose. +$0

Bet river:

Nobody has anything, they all fold (same result as checking). +$11

Someone was passively playing a better low or a straight, they call, we split. +$5.50

Someone was passively playing a better low or a straight, they fold, we scoop. +$11

Someone raises, we fold. -$ (the size of our bet).

I'm horrible at math and I don't know if I'm looking at the outcomes properly. But, I think we'd need to get someone to fold a second nut high/low more than 60% of the time for our bet to be profitable. Our bet only gets us an extra 2.5 big blinds "some times".

With 4 other players and 1 left to act, I don't like it.

I hate bet/fold. I think it's bad for our image. I'd rather get a cheap showdown, and maybe scoop, with a hand I maybe should've bet. Then I'd feel like I could bet spots like this and get one way/2nd nut hands to fold... but that might be a different egg all together.

I really do see what you're saying and I'm not trying to be argumentative but, I sense a learning opportunity here. So, I'm going to press the issue.
 
Double-A

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Most will sit on the nuts till the end hoping for a play like this.

I agree, which is kinda weak thinking but not so weak (also wik) when facing multiple opponents with one left to act.

The pots small, our enemies are many, I'm scared, and I want to go home.

Or at least, check it down, buy more chips, and wait for a better spot.
 
c9h13no3

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Fold preflop, we have an implied odds hand and a 15 big blind stack.
 
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