$20 NLHE Full Ring: TT pre, line check vs 4x raise from unknown MP?

D

doomasiggy

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Couldn't find 16nl stakes for the title sorry.

PokerStars - $0.16 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $20.48
Hero (SB): $17.67
BB: $4.72
UTG: $11.77
UTG+1: $27.57
MP: $17.06
MP+1: $20.34
CO: $9.79

Hero posts SB $0.08, BB posts BB $0.16

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.24) Hero has T:diamond: T:spade:

fold, fold, MP raises to $0.64, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $2.24, fold, MP raises to $17.06 and is all-in, fold

Is folding to a MP 4x raise preflop bad here? Flatting is terrible, 3-betting folds out a lot of hands. Thing is against a different opponent a 4x raise might be a bet sizing tell but not sure if this is standard.
 
micromachine

micromachine

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Flatting pre is not terrible, and nor is 3 betting. I would have 3b a little smaller though to $1.90
 
S

Sori

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effective stacks are deep enough that you can set mine here and just flat if you choose to play it that way.
 
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baudib1

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Flatting or 3-betting is fine really. But if we're flatting we're not playing just to set mine.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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Flatting or 3-betting is fine really. But if we're flatting we're not playing just to set mine.

This. TT is strong enough that you should probably never really JUST be set-mining it.

I tend to prefer flatting TT to 3betting except against people who have a huge continuance range against 3bets. Most players at the micros (in my experience) are folding a huge % to 3bets, so while 3betting isn't -EV, I think flatting is more +EV than 3betting.

I hate turning a hand like TT into a bluff preflop.
 
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Sori

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I agree, TT definitely is a strong enough hand where you shouldn't be playing it purely as a set mine. I guess what I was trying to say is that you should not be folding here because the stacks are deep enough where it would still be profitable to just flat as a set mine rather than folding. Am I wrong there?
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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I agree, TT definitely is a strong enough hand where you shouldn't be playing it purely as a set mine. I guess what I was trying to say is that you should not be folding here because the stacks are deep enough where it would still be profitable to just flat as a set mine rather than folding. Am I wrong there?

The thing is that you're not "wrong." Yes, stacks are deep enough that you can set-mine any pocket pair profitably.

But the point is that we would still be playing TT even if stacks were NOT deep enough to set mine profitably. Right? I'm still going to flat TT against a 40bb stack who raises to 4x, even though this would be very iffy if we were just set-mining. (Although it does get tricky because as stack sizes get shorter I'm much more willing to 3bet TT and get the money in).
 
JCgrind

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I definitely flat pre vs an unknown
 
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Sori

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Right, I understand. I was just taking the set mining route because the OPs question was if it was bad to fold pre. I was just saying that set mining alone makes it profitable just to flat, so that folding pre is bad.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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Right, I understand. I was just taking the set mining route because the OPs question was if it was bad to fold pre. I was just saying that set mining alone makes it profitable just to flat, so that folding pre is bad.

Yes. :) Please don't fold pre. :D
 
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