$20 NLHE Full Ring: Strange line by villain BvB

Again this is actually $30 NLHE

I have quite a few hands on villain but not a lot. He is decent. My notes on him that are relevant to this hand are that he often floats flop to steal on turn ip, once seen him raise pre then check/call flop with 2 overs and gutshot oop, check/check rest of way. Sometimes slowplays ip, but bet strong the whole way when he raised pre and flopped a set

UTG ($30)
UTG+1 ($30)
MP1 ($30)
MP2 ($30)
MP3 ($30)
CO ($30)
BTN ($30)
SB ($50.36)
BB - hero ($50.09)

hero is dealt Ks,9c

Preflop ($0.45)
7 folds, SB raise to $0.71, hero calls

Flop ($1.35) is 9d,7h,2c
SB checks, hero bets $0.90, SB calls.

Turn ($3.06) is 6s
SB checks, hero bets $1.80, SB calls.

River ($6.48) is 2s
SB bets $6.30, hero?

His line doesn't really make sense, can't think what he'd do this with except maybe something like A2? What are your thoughts?

fold or 3b pre.

readless id just puss it and fold. dont think a decent vil is c/c'ing two streets then mashing the pot button with a donkbet OTR as a bluff.

jchoop said:

fold or 3b pre.

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Care to expand on this? It's a tiny raise and i'm in position so I don't mind calling.

js520 said:

Care to expand on this? It's a tiny raise and i'm in position so I don't mind calling.

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without you giving me his stats is hard to know, but assuming villain is decent...

1. He knows that if you call he has to play the hand OOP, so his opening range should be relatively tight.
2. His opening range will (should) have K9 crushed. Any king he raises is going to have a stronger kicker than a 9 so if you hit your K you probably have to call 2 streets, and if its top pair, its probably outkicked.

for these reasons youre most likely seeing the flop as an underdog...

tbh i didnt notice the raise size in OP til you mentioned it, even so;

3. If hes opening wide contrary to point 1, he will fold all but the top of his range to your 3b, as he needs to be quite strong to continue vs a 3b OOP, so you can steal easily. Hands like med pairs and AT really should be folding to you here.
4. If he is a total noob and will call with air, youre building a pot in which it will be very hard for him to take from you, since you now have initiative in the hand as well as being in position. by 3bing you change this from a "call pre and hope to hit, else fold" to a "he has to hit, else fold to your Cbet (really doubt youre gunna get floated in a 3b pot, as the 3ber by someone OOP). hes only hitting 30% of the time, so youre getting a lot of steals postflop too, in a bigger pot

Thanks Jchoop, you clear it up well why it should be 3b or fold pre. Anyway as played is there really any hand that makes sense for him to have. I was confused by it as nothing really made sense

Again without stats hard to say, but I'm 99% sure youre beat here. I think you're probably right in it being A2, could be an awkwardly played set turned full. Only real bluff that makes sense to me is T8, but I think that's super unlikely, feel like this would be barreled at least on the flop. Ive seen people play small pairs like maybe 55 like that in spots like this- just turnig their hand into a bluff otr for no real reason, but again its unlikely. Like you say, nothing really makes sense, but you only beat hands that would check to you on the river. He MAY have something like 67 here also but that's all I can really guess at. Either way hope you folded.
Fwiw, if he hadve checked to you again you should try and suck out that tiny extra bit of value and bet like 40% IMO.

EDIT; wait lol T8 made it... Regardless I don't think he plays an OESD like this off te flop

Given history, villain is bad. Bet bigger everywhere. Most of his hands that c/c flop have picked up equity on the turn too, just bet bigger.

This is a pretty standard flat for me bvb, but if you're unsure what to do in a simple spot like this then folding is fine.

ChuckTs said:

Given history, villain is bad. Bet bigger everywhere. Most of his hands that c/c flop have picked up equity on the turn too, just bet bigger.

This is a pretty standard flat for me bvb, but if you're unsure what to do in a simple spot like this then folding is fine.

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So are you calling or folding the river since it's so simple?

Flat pre and it's not close.

I'm being told different things here, I did think flatting free was fine but Jchoop's reasoning makes some sense?

Check his steal in sb stat. I'm not really wanting to fold K9o vs most guys when i have position on them here. If he is only stealing like 20% then i might be more likely too, but even then you know, i think we can make -0.99bb or more by calling just because position is the nuts. It's not like a big leak not to call, if you don't think you can make money by calling or villain is too aggressive and you dont feel comfortable just fold, it's not a big deal.

js520 said:

I'm being told different things here, I did think flatting free was fine but Jchoop's reasoning makes some sense?

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its all very stat dependent, if theyre stealing lots, if theyre tight BvB, etc. youd need to list villain stats for an accurate less general answer.

i hate answers like "call pre and its not close". the guys posting here to learn, telling someone what to do is useless if they dont know why.

"flat pre and it's not close" was for you, not the people posting to learn.

Your thought process ITT is all over the place. 99% sure he's beat and A2 is his most likely hand does not reconcile with a tight opening range that has K9 crushed. People spew like mad BvB and description of villain doesn't fit a tight player profile at all.

baudib1 said:

"flat pre and it's not close" was for you, not the people posting to learn.

Your thought process ITT is all over the place. 99% sure he's beat and A2 is his most likely hand does not reconcile with a tight opening range that has K9 crushed. People spew like mad BvB and description of villain doesn't fit a tight player profile at all.

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so whatre you saying? snap that off??? i dont care about anything here other than what we beat. it doesnt matter what he has, we simply beat nothing that pot donks a river except total air. not hero calling here vs someone "decent", that river bet has catchup value written all over it

jchoop said:

. youd need to list villain stats for an accurate less general

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Unfortunately I don't use a HUD so I don't have stats. Have tried downloading both hem and pt3 and for some unknown retarded reasons they don't seem to work on my computer

jchoop said:

so whatre you saying? snap that off??? i dont care about anything here other than what we beat. it doesnt matter what he has, we simply beat nothing that pot donks a river except total air. not hero calling here vs someone "decent", that river bet has catchup value written all over it

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I think the river is a fold but it's pretty close.

baudib1 said:

I think the river is a fold but it's pretty close.

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yikes, no way. any other opinions on this?

'once seen him raise pre then check/call flop with 2 overs and gutshot oop, check/check rest of way'

might have brick/spazzed river with JT or something like that. ^

we also have the 2nd best 9 that doesn't make 9's up (if you understand) I think he can do this with worse/air.

overpairs make no sense really.. imo its likely he just thinks we're gonna check back a lot in this spot and he might miss value with TPSK so he's betting for value..

I think I fold in the moment, but its not a snap fold like you seem to think.

Campbell92 said:

Check back a lot in this spot and he might miss value with TPSK so he's betting for value..

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I'm sure you've heard the rule "If you're raised on the turn at micros you better have 2p+ to continue"? Same thing applies for anyone going for a third street of value. There aren't a lot of players who will value bet one pair hands here

we didn't get raised, we got donked into though..there's a difference.

if we got check raised here it'd be a big problem.

Campbell92 said:

we didn't get raised, we got donked into though..there's a difference.

if we got check raised here it'd be a big problem.

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No I know, and yes vs a c/r its a fold all day. I'm saying a pot donk bet by a good player isn't a bluff often enough to make this a profitable call. Guys don't put this much into a pot with 1 pair hands

jchoop said:

No I know, and yes vs a c/r its a fold all day. I'm saying a pot donk bet by a good player isn't a bluff often enough to make this a profitable call. Guys don't put this much into a pot with 1 pair hands

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This ^ I think.

I think hes almost always showing up with the goods and a flopped set or a duece is quite likely. You're not getting the odds to call out his very small bluffing range.

Villain is floaty and doesn't slowplay sets.

baudib1 said:

Villain is floaty and doesn't slowplay sets.

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This was one occasion when villain raised pre. We dont know what the board texture was like.

We cant make big judgements based on small samples of play. He may be floating overcards but a pot sized bluff against a considerable show of strength, I think is fairly unlikely.

Still I think this has to be a fold

Ok will in the end the hand confused me and I thought the confusing line maybe adds up to some wierd bluff because I just couldn't see what he would play like this other than maybe A2 But would he really just mash the pot button if he's rivered trips? So after activating my timebank I called and he has Q10o. Interesting..