$20 NLHE Full Ring: KK gets raised on flop

js520 · Jun 2, 2012

Villain 1 on the button here is big fish and very passive, villain 2 in the big blind has more or less just sat down and I have no information on him, never come across him before:

UTG ($27.38)
UTG+1 ($55.29)
MP1 ($20)
MP2- Hero ($20)
MP3 ($43)
CO ($23)
BTN ($11.60)
SB ($20)
BB ($25.83)

Hero is dealt KK
Pre flop ($0.30)
utg calls $0.20, 2 folds, hero raises to $1, 2 folds, btn calls, sb folds, bb calls, utg calls

Flop ($3.90) is 9,5,3 with two diamonds
utg check, hero bets $3.60, btn calls, bb raises to $24.83 and is all in, utg folds, hero?

My thoughts here are the bb has a set, what else is he raising with here? What are your thoughts?

JOEBOB69 · Jun 2, 2012

Is this a fair range for a unknown on this board?

---
19,800 games 0.001 secs 19,800,000 games/sec

Board: 3d 5c 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 18.843% 18.84% 00.00% 3731 0.00 { KcKh }
Hand 1: 81.157% 81.16% 00.00% 16069 0.00 { AA, 99, 55, 33, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad4d, Ad2d }

I added AA because i have seen these plays quite often.
If you take it out you are are still only 23% eq

GWU73 · Jun 7, 2012

Tough spot. I would evaluate the hand like this:
Any 2 diamonds, AA, QQ, JJ, 46, 42, 99, 33, 55 ( dont actually count the 2 card combinations, I generalize while in a hand)
You are way ahead of only 2 hands, crushed by4 hands, flipping with straight flush draws and slightly ahead of 8 or 9 out draws.
You have less than 1/4 of your stack in the middle already. Are you committed?
NO.
I would fold here. It is easier to earn 1/4 a stack than a whole stack. It is a tough fold. But if you call, you are really only hoping he has a flush draw, preferably without an Ace.

vegasjj · Jun 7, 2012

just to make it sort of "light"

I would fold - because I ALWAYS LOSE WITH KK
as stupid as it sounds - and as illogical as it is - KK does in a fact let me down every time there is a lot at stake.

orangepeeleo · Jun 7, 2012

vegasjj said:
just to make it sort of "light"

I would fold - because I ALWAYS LOSE WITH KK
as stupid as it sounds - and as illogical as it is - KK does in a fact let me down every time there is a lot at stake.

Sample size??

Cafeman · Jun 7, 2012

vegasjj said:
I ALWAYS LOSE WITH KK

Stop folding it then!

vegasjj · Jun 8, 2012

orangepeeleo said:
Sample size??

sorry I don't have one - but I be glad to start a thread and post all my KK hands that go to show down - good or bad.
What I can tell you - all mu friends know - I have this KK curse for years...so must be many.

Cafeman31 said:
Stop folding it then!

I should consider folding them (and on occasion I do) but generally speaking I just cannot do that - no matter what - I play them the best I can under the circumstances.

And truly (except for right after a big/significant loss) - I just think it is ridiculous and funny. I am no longer upset about it. It is just the way it is. One of those warped situations.

Really wonder what happened in this hand... looking forward to the follow-up
And i did not say - guess just implied - I would fold - or I hope I would have enough discipline to fold. Essentially the only way I think I can win - is if he is bluffing or he is on a flush draw. Just does not seem it to be worth my stack.

orangepeeleo · Jun 8, 2012

vegasjj said:
sorry I don't have one - but I be glad to start a thread and post all my KK hands that go to show down - good or bad.
What I can tell you - all mu friends know - I have this KK curse for years...so must be many.

I should consider folding them (and on occasion I do) but generally speaking I just cannot do that - no matter what - I play them the best I can under the circumstances.

And truly (except for right after a big/significant loss) - I just think it is ridiculous and funny. I am no longer upset about it. It is just the way it is. One of those warped situations.

Really wonder what happened in this hand... looking forward to the follow-up
And i did not say - guess just implied - I would fold - or I hope I would have enough discipline to fold. Essentially the only way I think I can win - is if he is bluffing or he is on a flush draw. Just does not seem it to be worth my stack.

Sorry to crash the thread OP.

Given your misfortune with KK, and I sometimes feel like they always have AA too, what would you do in this spot.

poker stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 1791470
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $9.93
SB: $3.33
BB: $13.84
UTG: $7.80
UTG+1: $10.00
UTG+2: $2.12
MP1: $4.02
MP2: $15.11
Hero (CO): $10.35

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with K :club: K :heart:
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.40, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.45, BTN raises to $9.93 all in, 4 folds, Hero ??

Initial raiser is 11/11 over 168 hands, the btn shover is 17/10 over 30, has never 3bet/4bet before.

Ducky7 · Jun 8, 2012

In this spot i dont think you are folding KK, if you only have 30 hands of history on this guy then that is basically irrelvant. I think that in this spot if he has AA he is going to be 4 bet for value rather than jamming, leading me more towards AK, QQ, JJ hands and i would be making this call a lot of the time, if not all

orangepeeleo · Jun 8, 2012

In the OP's hand I call it off btw, he could easily be spazzing out with QQ and that makes me wanna call.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.897% 66.28% 01.62% 38585329 943287.50 { KcKh }
Hand 1: 32.103% 30.48% 01.62% 17746432 943287.50 { QQ+, 99, 55, 33, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd }

naruto_miu · Jun 8, 2012

orangepeeleo said:
In the OP's hand I call it off btw, he could easily be spazzing out with QQ and that makes me wanna call.

Would they not RR pre with QQ?

John A · Jun 8, 2012

JOEBOB69 said:
Is this a fair range for a unknown on this board?

---
19,800 games 0.001 secs 19,800,000 games/sec

Board: 3d 5c 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 18.843% 18.84% 00.00% 3731 0.00 { KcKh }
Hand 1: 81.157% 81.16% 00.00% 16069 0.00 { AA, 99, 55, 33, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad4d, Ad2d }

I added AA because i have seen these plays quite often.
If you take it out you are are still only 23% eq

No, not really close... and it's not a fold almost ever.

Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board: 5h 3d 9d

Equity Win Tie Hand Range
58.7853% 58.7853% 0% [ KdKc ]
41.2147% 41.2147% 0% [ 99-JJ(100), 55(100), 33(100), AdQd(100), AdJd(100), AdTd(100), Ad8d(100), Ad7d(100), Ad6d(100), Ad4d(100), KdJd(100), KdTd(100), KdQd(100), QdTd(100), 6d4d(100), JdTd(100), QdJd(100), Ad2d(100), 8d7d(100), 7d6d(100),QQ(75),AA(40), A9s(40) ]

Pascal-lf · Jun 10, 2012

the range you assigned him on that flop is way too tight, he can easily have flush draws with no overs/top pairs etc

js520 · Jun 11, 2012

Thank you for all the replies, seems like a mixed reactions as to how wide his range is and whether I should have called or not. I ended up folding but the other fish called, the guy who shoved had 10,9 and the caller A9

John A · Jun 11, 2012

js520 said:
Thank you for all the replies, seems like a mixed reactions as to how wide his range is and whether I should have called or not. I ended up folding but the other fish called, the guy who shoved had 10,9 and the caller A9

People tend to remember their losses more than their wins, so a lot of people when they are learning tend to assign ranges too tight.

John A · Jun 11, 2012

Speaking of which, if that is a struggle for you, then you should try the ace poker drills equity calculator because it will auto assign hand ranges for you based on the action - only calc that exist like this. It's not always perfect though, but it's a good place to start, and you can edit the ranges.

It will synch up to HM1 or 2, and PT3 and grab hands from your database and you can just view them, replay them or run equity calcs from App. You can make notes, assign weighted ranges, export them, etc...

http://acepokerdrills.com/poker_equity_calculator.html

I'm biased, but it's the best one on the market for the price (it's free).

js520 · Jun 12, 2012

haha, thanks John, i'll give it a try

Deco · Jun 12, 2012

I call.

*The sizing makes this more likely to be a flush, we'll often see minraises or flats from sets whilst flush draws people love to overbet shove with.
*There aren't many combos of set
*There are more flush draws in the BBs range as he was the 4th to come into this multiway pot, expect more 45s/Axs sort of hands than usual.

$20 NLHE Full Ring: KK gets raised on flop

js520

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