$20 NLHE Full Ring: KK, fish donks river

J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
Villain stats are 19/6/48afq

888 Poker - $0.20 NL - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG: $40.26
Hero (CO): $20.00
BTN: $15.00
SB: $23.37
BB: $17.94

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.20

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.30) Hero has Kc Ks

fold, Hero raises to $0.60, fold, fold, BB calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.30, 2 players) 7h Tc Qc
BB bets $0.97, Hero raises to $3.20, BB calls $2.23

Turn: ($7.70, 2 players) 6c
BB checks, Hero bets $4.00, BB calls $4.00

River: ($15.70, 2 players) 7d
BB bets $10.14, Hero?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Call the river for sure. I sorta want to raise the river, but too many draws got there. You flop raise should be much larger too.
 
S

Sori

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Total posts
256
Chips
0
Call the river for sure. I sorta want to raise the river, but too many draws got there. You flop raise should be much larger too.

Just curious, how much larger do you want him to raise the flop? I thought it was a pretty good size.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
$4.21 is a pot sized raise. I guess $3.20 isn't that small, but with so many straight draws out I'd think you'd get calls at a higher raise size. $4 would be my preferred size.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
dunno how many flushes he plays like this, I wanna shove the river now since we beat QT and he has like a million Qx combos that are gonna pay us off.
 
J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
I don't see how he would ever play a Queen like this, it just doesn't make sense.Why would he donk river, after calling the raise on the flop then check calling he turn
 
S

Sori

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Total posts
256
Chips
0
$4.21 is a pot sized raise. I guess $3.20 isn't that small, but with so many straight draws out I'd think you'd get calls at a higher raise size. $4 would be my preferred size.

I think I'm confused, wouldnt $2.27 be a pot sized raise? What am i missing? I do think $4 is a good sized raise though, and sets it up better for stacking the opp. if we feel our hand is best after turn/river.
 
S

Sori

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Total posts
256
Chips
0
When I look back at the hand, I could see this guy having a flush. Betting the flop in hopes of taking the pot and not having the catch another club. Once it hits on the turn, he checks trying to slowplay it like many people do. The river comes and he doesn't want to risk missing value so he donks out. I just feel like that could be a line maybe would take with a flush draw that hits on turn.
 
J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
When I look back at the hand, I could see this guy having a flush. Betting the flop in hopes of taking the pot and not having the catch another club. Once it hits on the turn, he checks trying to slowplay it like many people do. The river comes and he doesn't want to risk missing value so he donks out. I just feel like that could be a line maybe would take with a flush draw that hits on turn.

I agree, fish often take a line like this when they hit their flush, they don't want to scare you away when they hit it, then on the river they think, 'if i check he might check back, need to get value'. fwiw he took a long time to check and then to call on the turn. I think people often do this with the nuts aswell as they are trying to sell us that they have a hard decision. Obviously it could be that he actually does have a hard decision with a straight draw and i wouldn't rule out 7x either. So I think if we have the best hand here it's because he's betting a busted straight draw, I don't think he ever has a Qx, the way he played it.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
'if i check he might check back, need to get value'.

how does he not think this with a Queen then?

sigh.. he can have flushes but I think he has Qx more than he has flushes, and we have the Kc so he has less combos of plausible flushes.. would be happier doing this with AA with the Ac but the Kc deffo blocks enough imo.

isnt BB's river bet pretty much a shove though? pots $15 so he's put in like $7.50 with a $17 stack.

19/6s don't semi-bluff anyway.. he's leading with a Q like all the time here and betting river to try get value since he doesn't care what we have.. the river paired and he has a Q right?

oh yeah and the fact he could be spazzing with some random shit.. (even though I just said 19/6s don't semi-bluff, i'm aware) are KJ/J9 not options?

retards thought process:

flop - 'I has TP, must bet to get value.. oh no he raised me, but I have TP he's probably bluffing, call'

turn - 'i'll check to let him keep bluffing'

river - 'i'll lead because I don't want him to check back AK' (not aware of the fact that AK won't call a river shove here'

you should've called and had him show you Q9o. (seems like you didnt get to SD by your wording)
 
J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
he doesn't think the same way with a queen as he does with a flush surely, a flush is basically the nuts so he desperately doesn't want to scare us away on the turn then he desperately trys o get value on the river. with a queen he is check calling the turn because he is scared we have him beat, he's scared of the flush and whatever else we have that beats just a pair. River he is still scared we have the flush so why would he bet? pretty sure he check/calls the river with a Queen
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
pretty sure he doesn't, but ok..
 
1luckysob

1luckysob

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Total posts
681
Awards
1
Chips
5
min raise pre is no good with KK unless ur planning on getting donked off on later streets. raise 3x or 2.75x
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
its a super standard fish flush line, but im still calling the river.

as for the flop raise size, i like it. if theres any street where the bet size is too small id say its OTT?
 
J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
its a super standard fish flush line, but im still calling the river.

as for the flop raise size, i like it. if theres any street where the bet size is too small id say its OTT?

Yea on the turn I was planning on folding to a shove so didn't want to bet too much? Would you have called if he shoved over my turn bet?
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
Yea on the turn I was planning on folding to a shove so didn't want to bet too much? Would you have called if he shoved over my turn bet?

thats a really really bad way to think. iono, depends on what id noticed from villain, but generally, when villain started the hand w <100bb and im sitting there with Kc yeah id call
 
J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
thats a really really bad way to think. iono, depends on what id noticed from villain, but generally, when villain started the hand w <100bb and im sitting there with Kc yeah id call

Well I also knew that if I didn't need to size it any higher to get my stack in by the river (I was planning to put him all in if he checked the river to get value from Qx) as it made the pot roughly $15, with him being left just over $10 behind.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
its a super standard fish flush line, but im still calling the river.

as for the flop raise size, i like it. if theres any street where the bet size is too small id say its OTT?

what fish do you know that donk FD's?

donks are made hands more from fish imo..
 
C

Cheecho

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Total posts
24
Chips
0
Really? You would all call this one? I would fold, so I am interested to hear thoughts.

Here's how I see it.

He called your pre-flop raise from BB. So, maybe he has a pocket pair 88-JJ (maybe QQ). Probs not KK (given your hand and the fact that he did not 3-bet) similarly, not AA. Maybe he has two suited face cards or suited connectors. If he is fishy, maybe Ax. I would need to know that he is truly a fish before i assume that he calls from the BB with Qx (where x <T)

The post-flop bet goes well with his having Qx and top pair, being 4 to the flush (semi bluff), hitting the set with 77 or TT. Maybe he has QT and is now on two pair? He checks the turn, which would make me think that he has Qx or the like, but when he calls your turn bet and then comes out firing on the river - to me that smells like he is trying to milk a big hand. This line screams flush or set to me. Yes, we are ahead of all Qx (well most), but that is the bottom of his range by the time we get to the river. I do not know the villain. Maybe he would get them all in on top pair, but without knowledge that he would do such a thing, I have to assume that he has more than just a Q. Further, if we want to label him a fish because he would ship it on the river with just top pair, why are we any less fishy by calling a ship on the river with only an over pair?
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
Well I also knew that if I didn't need to size it any higher to get my stack in by the river (I was planning to put him all in if he checked the river to get value from Qx) as it made the pot roughly $15, with him being left just over $10 behind.

problem with this is that many fish simply call til all the cards are out, then decide if they have the best hand. they will call any draw for any amount of money- ie its a lot easier to get money in the pot OTF and OTT vs fish imo

what fish do you know that donk FD's?

donks are made hands more from fish imo..

there are tons of fish that donk flops w ATC, since they quickly recognise who folds. donking rivers when they make their flush though is so so so so standard since theres so many players that dont valuebet rivers bc they suck at thin value
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
I've had that happen to me ridic rarely at FR.. might just be me, or the fact I raise pretty much every donkbet in HU pots lol.

mm, I dunno.. I don't disagree JC just never ever seen it and think this will be Qx way more than flushes imo.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
Must be a 6max thing... Which would make sense since ranges are ridic wide
 
Nathan Williams

Nathan Williams

Poker Pro
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Total posts
1,095
Awards
3
Chips
10
Bleh, pretty gross spot. This guy is a weak nit so I tend to think he has something pretty good when he calls the flop. When one of the main straight draws and the flush draw come in on the turn I would highly suggest thinking about checking behind and controlling the size of the pot. Doesn't mean I am folding the river or not value betting it when checked to.
 
T

Teebone

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Total posts
180
Chips
0
A better way to think about this is to think about what he thinks YOU have..

Whats your table image? Have you won or lost alot of pots? Remember poker isnt all about hand reading. Its about PEOPLE reading. He could be playing you
 
Top