$20 NLHE Full Ring: JJ Button vs BB

Firstly this is actually $30 NLHE (no option for that).

Villain is a reg and a pretty decent one, although not the most conventional player. His cbet % I would say is quite low, he often will not cbet with overpairs,tptk etc when he's oop, quite often goes into check/call mode with these type of hands. He's not overly aggressive preflop with 3bets but I wouldn't say he's that tight either.

UTG ($70)
MP1 ($30)
MP2 ($42.50)
CO ($30)
BTN - hero ($30)
SB - ($30)
BB ($32.27)

Hero is dealt Js,Jd

Preflop ($0.45)
4 folds, hero raises to $0.90, 1 fold, BB raises to $2.85, hero calls

Flop ($5.56) is Qs,5c,4c
BB bets $3, hero calls

Turn ($11.26) is 2d
BB checks, hero bets $7.20, BB raises to $26.42 and is all in, hero?


Ok so when he 3bets me preflop he's got a wide range since its button vs BB. I decided to flat rather than 4bet because I'm not comfortable stacking off if he comes over the top. Is this fine or should I just 4bet? The flop is an ok one and its only a 1/2 psb so easy call ip. Turn he checks to me and I'm thinking he's given up with the hand but there are two flush draws out there so I bet to protect my hand/potentially get value from a draw or a smaller pair. Then he jams. Wasn't expecting that but my initial thoughts our he's FOS. Why would he not continue to value bet the turn if he had something. Unless he thinks I'm floating the flop to try and take it away on the turn (A play I think he thinks I might do). So make the call?

I think you're crushed so i personally would fold, he's bet for value every street and isn't taking any crap from you. The only question is with half your stack in already do you just call and grit your teeth?

I'm seeing more and more now people are betting for value then checking the turn to induce a bluff so they can shove, making it look like they were just c-betting and had missed and given up when essentially they're luring you in.

Doesn't have to be that in this spot but without history i'd just probably let it go or shove flop because if you're beating him on the flop then the only cards that can come are a J (unlikely) or a scare card. You started off aggro pre flop but then let him take the lead. I'd personally probably shove flop, or at least 3-bet it.

Confused why you would want to maybe shove this flop punch??

OP, Just fold, he caught you with your fingers in the cookie jar. Unless you know he takes lines like this always with draws or something then you just are crushed by his value range for doing this. It's a decent line on his part, because people float so much in 3bet pots these days.

I don't like the turn bet.

Pretty close, probably a call.

If your read is that he'd usually check overpairs and TPTK OOP and thus we can discount KK/AA/AQ somewhat then we should be doing ok. So if we give him a discounted AA/KK and he would check-shove AK as a 10-out semibluff then we have odds to call, ~17ish to win ~$42.

Board: Qs 5c 4c 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.981% 58.98% 00.00% 4827 0.00 { AdAh, AdAs, AhAs, KdKh, KdKs, KhKs, QQ, AQs+, KQs, AKo }
Hand 1: 41.019% 41.02% 00.00% 3357 0.00 { JJ }

From my experience this is almost always nuts at these stakes, as well as being my line on most boards with overpairs OOP against opponents who are overly aggro/ like to float then stab when checked to OTT. I havnt seen a turn check/shove by an aggressor used as a semi bluff even semi-regularly any lower than 200NL. I think you're totally crushed.
Raising the flop is retarded and spewy, youre essentially turning your hand into a bluff- everythig better calls and all worse folds (cept for maybe like AcKc and AcJc if they're even in his range- but they're prob 3b shoving anyway forcing you to fold). I hate the turn bet, you only beat air. I know you want to protect your hand, but IMO you're far better off checking back turn and hoping river isn't an A or K and calling down.
4b pre is horrible, flatting and letting him fire off is the only way to go.

I would think hes protecting the same way as you - against the flushes. HE also thinks ur making a position play and could have a wide range of cards. How was his play in the 20 hands? Did he seem in a gear? If so you may have just lost control of the hand to 10 10. I'm thinking there might be a better spot to blow ur load but ur just about commited at this point - I think you were 75% pf - now down to like 30 to 60% plus bluff factor/semi-bluff factor and I think u have to take ur lumps with the amount you have in already... I hate losing my stack with JJ and often fold in multi-hand pots with just jj...HU is another animal.

After reveiwing the hand I just got the eery feeling he had a3 - maybe suited. Just dont smell right - I'd prolly fold and look for a better spot - When im just looking foir reasons to call its never gd.

LaserCats said:

I would think hes protecting the same way as you - against the flushes.

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If he wanted to protect his hand against flushes I would have thought he would bet the turn rather than check/raise?

Looks from your responses I should have checked back on the turn. I just thought he had given up on the hand and I didn't want to let him hit one of his miracle outs on the river. But you lot are saying its better to take that risk to avoid this kind of situation where he raises me all in?

LaserCats said:

When im just looking foir reasons to call its never gd.

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A-****ing-men

I doubt he has anything remotely resembling the nuts. Of course he doesn't have to have the nuts to beat us.

A lot of this depends on info not given, i.e. what villain thinks of us. But if your instinct says he's FOS, I'd go with it.

baudib1 said:

I doubt he has anything remotely resembling the nuts. Of course he doesn't have to have the nuts to beat us.

A lot of this depends on info not given, i.e. what villain thinks of us. But if your instinct says he's FOS, I'd go with it.

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Ye sorry I use the term loose. Monster

His most likely hand is going to be something like AcKc or AcQc.

giving him a range of hands i think hed play like this;

QQ+,AcKc,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc,KcQc,KcJc,KcTc,QcJc,QcTc,JcTc,8c7c,7c6c,AcKd,AcKh,AcKs,AcQd,AcQh,AcQs,AcJd,AcJh,AcJs,AcTd,AcTh,AcTs,KcQd,KcQh,KcQs

and thats a super generous range imo. we have a few blockers to that range too but im tired and cbf editing, besides the generous range combined adding in blockers will make up for the lack of air combos for the times he occassionally bluffs (which tbh i think is absurdly rare here and shouldnt even be included).
point of the story is we're 28.7% vs that range, and its like ~$17 to win ~$60.

fold imo

I'm totally fine with the line but this is an easy instafold.

jchoop said:

giving him a range of hands i think hed play like this;

QQ+,AcKc,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc,KcQc,KcJc,KcTc,QcJc,QcTc,JcTc,8c7c,7c6c,AcKd,AcKh,AcKs,AcQd,AcQh,AcQs,AcJd,AcJh,AcJs,AcTd,AcTh,AcTs,KcQd,KcQh,KcQs

and thats a super generous range imo. we have a few blockers to that range too but im tired and cbf editing, besides the generous range combined adding in blockers will make up for the lack of air combos for the times he occassionally bluffs (which tbh i think is absurdly rare here and shouldnt even be included).
point of the story is we're 28.7% vs that range, and its like ~$17 to win ~$60.

fold imo

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"he often will not cbet with overpairs,tptk etc when he's oop"

Means his range is mega-polarized.

Also it's $17 to win $42. If we were calling off $17 to win $60, it would be a snapcall. Also I got 31% using your range.

baudib1 said:

"he often will not cbet with overpairs,tptk etc when he's oop"

Means his range is mega-polarized. Lolwut. How is his range mega polarized? You said yourself he's most likely drawing

Also it's $17 to win $42. If we were calling off $17 to win $60, it would be a snapcall. Also I got 31% using your range.

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You really like disagreeing with me don't you?
That doesn't mean anything. How he has been seen "usually" playing overpairs isn't at all relevant when in a big, 3b pot.
My bad was late, added the 17 to 42 lol.
Not sure how you got 31% when i copy pasted that directly out of stove. also it's not like the 2.5% difference matters, regardless of who is right, it's still a fold

acky100 said:

Confused why you would want to maybe shove this flop punch??

OP, Just fold, he caught you with your fingers in the cookie jar. Unless you know he takes lines like this always with draws or something then you just are crushed by his value range for doing this. It's a decent line on his part, because people float so much in 3bet pots these days.

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Just because if you're going to make a stand the flop is the place to do it. I wouldn't shove the flop, i would have probably folded because i don't like JJ in this situation as i think we're beat. But if it's a choice between that or calling the flop then leading out on a total brick on the turn and getting ourselves in this position then i'd rather just (at the minimum) 3-bet the flop and see if he has the minerals. If he does then good luck to him and i would note it down for next time. Like i said a lot of people nowadays are getting most of the money in OOP pre and then on the flop and are then feigning weakness on the turn allowing the opponent to bluff at it only to suddenly be pot stuck. If you're going to play the hand at all you need to keep the pressure on the opponent while you've got position and the best way to do that with some showdown value is to 4-bet or shove pre, or at least 3-bet the flop.

Lolwut. How is his range mega polarized? You said yourself he's most likely drawing

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Having a draw in your range doesn't mean it's not mega-polarized. A mega-polarized range would generally include a lot of draws.

We don't have any information on how villain plays in 3-bet pots so your dismissal of OP's very specific read makes no sense whatsoever.
We know he doesn't play 1-pair hands like this OOP. That's a pretty huge piece of information, so putting a bunch of 1-pair hands in his range doesn't make a lot of sense.

Nor does it really make any sense to put hands like AcJh in his range or 76cc and not T9cc, but w/e.

In the end I thought he either has a set of queens or I have him beat since I don't think he plays one pair hands like this. So I called and he had 10c,9c and my Jacks held out

I would have called, too, based on your read. NH.

I'm not sure but on turn I'm probably checking back. JJ on a Qxx board in a 3bet pot IP feels like a SDV situation to me. I just feel like floating the flop but then betting the turn is just turning your hand into a bluff. And when you turn into a bluff and he check-raises you you have to treat it like a bluff and muck it, because this feels like he's going for value with an overpair or TPGK.

So unless you have a read that he could be doing this with like 88+ or mostly draws or air it's an easy fold on the turn. But yeah, I actually think turn bet is a kind of significant mistake, because he's probably not calling often with worse, and we're definitely not getting him to fold out any better hands.