$20 NLHE Full Ring: 4bet gets flatted. miss flop, give up?

J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
Villain is a complete unknown. I have just sat down and never seen him before.

UTG ($20)
UTG+1 ($20)
MP1 ($20)
MP2 ($20)
MP3 - hero ($20)
CO ($20)
BTN ($20)
SB ($20)
BB ($38.20)

Hero is dealt Ah,Ks
Preflop ($0.30)
4 folds, hero raises to $0.60, 2 folds, SB call, BB raises to $2.40, Hero raises to $5, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop ($10.07) is Qd,6s,6h
BB checks, hero?

So obviously this is a situation that barely ever comes up. Is it best just to give up here?
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
Against an unknown, either I 4bet bigger for value, or I flat the 3bet in position.

The small 4bet is great against regs as you can bluff more often and induce light 5bets, but unknowns are usually fishes.
 
J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
Against an unknown, either I 4bet bigger for value, or I flat the 3bet in position.

The small 4bet is great against regs as you can bluff more often and induce light 5bets, but unknowns are usually fishes.

Ok so your if your 4betting here your making it like $7(?) since villain is unknown, but if villain was a reg then $5 is about right? I would of usually 4bet to some where between $6 and $7 until I read a recent thread the other day where 4bet sizing was discussed. I maybe misinterpreted it slightly.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/bet-sizing-4b-pots-212318/

Anyway as played do you just check the flop and give up?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Qxx flops are good for c-betting, since they're dry and they may get pocket pairs below QQ to fold.

I'd fire for $4.25.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
Ok so your if your 4betting here your making it like $7(?) since villain is unknown, but if villain was a reg then $5 is about right? I would of usually 4bet to some where between $6 and $7 until I read a recent thread the other day where 4bet sizing was discussed. I maybe misinterpreted it slightly.

Against a reg who will either 5bet or fold, a $5 4bet is great.

Against an unknown, you have to assume he's most likely not a reg, and therefore probably not solid. That means he could do stupid things like flatting your 4bet oop. And in that case, you want to have more value and that means a slightly larger size.

Anyway as played do you just check the flop and give up?

I agree with c9 on the cbet and its size. Bad players who call 4bets oop tend to also play fit or fold postflop, so it's nice to give them the opportunity to fold small pocket pairs or random crap that still has significant equity versus our AK high.

If you do decide to check back flop, i don't think you can give up on turn. If he decides to bet his range will be polarised, and you have a pretty good bluff catcher.
 
J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
Since he flatted the 4bet oop I assumed he was bad so I didn't think there was anything I could get him to fold that he would call the 4bet with. Maybe JJ/TT but still maybe not
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
villains who call 4bets typically either have AA or are calling with JJ- to see if the flop brings overcards or not. Qxx is probably scary enough for that purpose.
 
acky100

acky100

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Total posts
3,523
Chips
0
Belgo, why do you think we can't give up on the turn if we check the flop? If you agree his range is probably pair heavy, i can't see enough air in a 4bet flatting range to want to bluff catch with A high myself...?
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
Belgo, why do you think we can't give up on the turn if we check the flop? If you agree his range is probably pair heavy, i can't see enough air in a 4bet flatting range to want to bluff catch with A high myself...?

Because I don't think he bets 99 on the turn, but if there's any air or AJ-, he probably does.

Not sure, really. Assigning 4bet calling ranges to unknowns is kind of hard.
 
acky100

acky100

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Total posts
3,523
Chips
0
I just think people who are going to be calling 4bets oop with AJ are also dumb enough to start betting their pairs, i see fish betting pairs and stuff a lot even if they dont know why they are betting.

If i check the flop i'm just giving up unless villain bets like 1/4 pot or something. Just don't think theres enough air in a flatting range here unless we know specifically he is like 50/10 and stupid or something.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
i think you need to bet $5.50-6, simply lots of value to be had, plus lots of people arent disciplined enough to fold to a minraise. id bet just slightly more than my 4b on this flop for sure, youll get a lot of folds here, if they call its prob something like JJ TT trying to hero so id shove basically any turn too. if he slowplayed KK or AA on you then NH
 
Top