€20 NLHE 6-max: Would you just call it a cooler or I over played my hand?

Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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If I only share the hand I am sure you guys would say it's just a way over played hand. So it's critical to share the previous 2 hands I had with this guy. I try to figure out what sort of a fish a player is and this one had firmly established himself as the bottom of the barrel. Coincidentally I happen to have the same hand in all 3 pots.

First the 2 I won in order,

iPoker - €0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.61, PFR: 15.82, 3Bet Preflop: 3.54, Hands: 6,903)
Hero (CO): 110.15 BB
BTN: 226.65 BB (VPIP: 23.09, PFR: 17.48, 3Bet Preflop: 6.07, Hands: 13,480)
SB: 112 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 38.10, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 22)
BB: 115.85 BB (VPIP: 22.82, PFR: 14.12, 3Bet Preflop: 4.09, Hands: 528)
UTG: 121.2 BB (VPIP: 58.99, PFR: 37.70, 3Bet Preflop: 13.72, Hands: 1,242)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:diamond: J:spade:

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, SB calls 2 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB

Flop: (7.5 BB, 3 players) T:spade: 7:diamond: A:spade:
SB bets 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 13.2 BB, SB calls 10.2 BB

Turn: (33.9 BB, 2 players) A:club:
SB checks, Hero bets 27.1 BB, SB calls 27.1 BB

River: (88.1 BB, 2 players) J:club:
SB bets 69.2 BB, Hero calls 67.35 BB

Hero shows A:diamond: J:spade: (Full House, Aces full of Jacks)
(Pre 64%, Flop 81%, Turn 100%)
SB shows T:heart: 8:diamond: (Two Pair, Aces and Tens)
(Pre 36%, Flop 19%, Turn 0%)
Hero wins 207.95 BB
SB wins 1.85 BB


iPoker - €0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 108.2 BB (VPIP: 25.60, PFR: 15.79, 3Bet Preflop: 3.51, Hands: 7,041)
Hero (BB): 181.25 BB
UTG: 234 BB (VPIP: 23.04, PFR: 17.43, 3Bet Preflop: 6.06, Hands: 13,550)
CO: 50 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 36.36, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 56)
BTN: 153.35 BB (VPIP: 58.52, PFR: 37.14, 3Bet Preflop: 13.40, Hands: 1,279)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1.5 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 3 BB) Hero has A:diamond: J:spade:

fold, CO checks, BTN calls 1 BB, fold, Hero raises to 4.5 BB, CO calls 3.5 BB, fold

Flop: (11 BB, 2 players) 2:club: 8:club: A:club:
Hero bets 12.1 BB, CO calls 12.1 BB

Turn: (35.2 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond:
Hero bets 38.7 BB, CO calls 32.9 BB

River: (101 BB, 2 players) 6:spade:

CO shows Q:club: 7:diamond: (One Pair, Sixes)
(Pre 35%, Flop 37%, Turn 20%)
Hero shows A:diamond: J:spade: (Two Pair, Aces and Sixes)
(Pre 65%, Flop 63%, Turn 80%)
Hero wins 100.1 BB


So now comes the heartbreak...

iPoker - €0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 324.35 BB
SB: 70.5 BB (VPIP: 41.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 12)
BB: 143.65 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 24.00, 3Bet Preflop: 3.17, Hands: 101)
UTG: 137.55 BB (VPIP: 21.06, PFR: 14.92, 3Bet Preflop: 3.09, Hands: 1,371)
CO: 54.35 BB (VPIP: 58.89, PFR: 37.40, 3Bet Preflop: 13.29, Hands: 1,330)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:diamond: J:club:

fold, CO raises to 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, fold, BB calls 3 BB

Flop: (12.5 BB, 3 players) 3:heart: 3:diamond: J:spade:
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets 10 BB, BB calls 10 BB, fold

Turn: (32.5 BB, 2 players) 4:spade:
BB checks, Hero bets 26 BB, BB calls 26 BB

River: (84.5 BB, 2 players) 9:club:
BB checks, Hero bets 50.7 BB, BB raises to 103.65 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 52.95 BB

Hero mucks A:diamond: J:club: (Two Pair, Jacks and Threes)
(Pre 68%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
BB shows 9:heart: 3:club: (Full House, Threes full of Nines)
(Pre 32%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)
BB wins 276.8 BB

Always feel rather terrible to lose that much with TPTK but really even retrospectively I am not sure what should be done? He was playing just so downright terrible that trying to be passive here is surely losing value?
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

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I think he seems to be a call-down fish from the hands that you've posted. That is, he'll call you down with very marginal crap, but he doesn't seem too eager to put money in the pot.

The question for the third hand is - we still have to be targeting some shitty hand for value when we bet, so what is it? Maybe pocket pairs like 88, 77, maybe worse jacks, definitely. He seems like the kind of guy that would call river with these. However, I think we have to put a 3 in his range since fish loooove to slow play.

I'd bet river a little smaller so that when he raises we can get away from the hand. There is no way we are good when he raises here I don't think.

Also don't post results, it skews my thinking.
 
John A

John A

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NH.... minus not folding on the river - and I think your value sizing on the river is fine and def bet/foldable. This is just my personal experience, but people talk about river odds a lot, but in incorrect terms I think. The bigger the pot gets, the less likely someone is bluffing, especially by the river. So there should be a proportional skew when talking about what kinds of odds you're getting on the end to make a call to the size of the pot.

So that being said, what worse value hand do you think this guy is calling down with and then suddenly check/jamming the river with? Dude is playing 100% of his hands after over 100 hands, and is likely passive. A 3 is def in this guys range. So I think the answer to your question is pretty obvious.

Don't get pot stuck just because you put a lot of money in. You need to re-orient your thinking in situations like this since it seems to be a theme. You need to be thinking in terms of making the correct play that will make or save you the most money long term. How many hands like this do you have in your database where a fish jams this deep as a bluff vs value hands or worse value hands? My guess is you won't find many, if any bluffs and almost never worse value hands unless they are totally droolers.
 
IPlay

IPlay

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Damn John, you make me realize how much I need to work on letting go of hands in some spots that I just sigh call.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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NH.... minus not folding on the river - and I think your value sizing on the river is fine and def bet/foldable. This is just my personal experience, but people talk about river odds a lot, but in incorrect terms I think. The bigger the pot gets, the less likely someone is bluffing, especially by the river. So there should be a proportional skew when talking about what kinds of odds you're getting on the end to make a call to the size of the pot.

So that being said, what worse value hand do you think this guy is calling down with and then suddenly check/jamming the river with? Dude is playing 100% of his hands after over 100 hands, and is likely passive. A 3 is def in this guys range. So I think the answer to your question is pretty obvious.

Don't get pot stuck just because you put a lot of money in. You need to re-orient your thinking in situations like this since it seems to be a theme. You need to be thinking in terms of making the correct play that will make or save you the most money long term. How many hands like this do you have in your database where a fish jams this deep as a bluff vs value hands or worse value hands? My guess is you won't find many, if any bluffs and almost never worse value hands unless they are totally droolers.

You are right on the last part that this doesn't happen often enough at all that it's a bluff in the end. However as we saw in the first hand the fish donk shoved 70BB with virtually nothing. Now that doesn't happen all that often either does it? And it was as bad and illogical a bluff as it gets.

What is true though is that donk shoves are more of a common bluff than check raise. I am working on the pot committed part. I have not made that instant click for a few thousand hands now, I collect myself and give myself as much time as is available.

But against this opponent given that first hand I just couldn't find a fold. :(

Do you think I should become tigher on the river when deep stacked for the time being? Seems like I just hate getting 2 bet on the river. I know this shouldn't be a solution but still food for thought. I guess I still have that tournament mentality in me where you can't just fold after a certain point since it would be so difficult to play on.
 
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