£20 NLHE 6-max: Would you have slowed down and possibly get away with this hand?

Thinker_145

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£20 NLHE 6-max: Would you have slowed down and possibly get away with this hand?

iPoker - £0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 34.15, PFR: 24.92, 3Bet Preflop: 6.02, hands: 3,704)
Hero (SB): 106.9 BB
BB: 283.45 BB (VPIP: 25.52, PFR: 20.32, 3Bet Preflop: 6.59, Hands: 2,987)
UTG: 213.5 BB (VPIP: 32.69, PFR: 22.33, 3Bet Preflop: 4.65, Hands: 104)
CO: 169.05 BB (VPIP: 27.54, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 3.15, Hands: 351)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:spade: A:club:

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, UTG calls 7 BB

Flop: (21 BB, 2 players) 4:heart: 6:club: A:spade:
Hero bets 16.8 BB, UTG calls 16.8 BB

Turn: (54.6 BB, 2 players) Q:diamond:
Hero bets 43.65 BB, UTG raises to 129.85 BB, Hero calls 36.45 BB

River: (214.8 BB, 2 players) 4:diamond:

Hero mucks K:spade: A:club: (Two Pair, Aces and Fours)
(Pre 45%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)
UTG shows 6:spade: 6:heart: (Full House, Sixes full of Fours)
(Pre 55%, Flop 98%, Turn 100%)
UTG wins 253.85 BB

Really hate hands like these. Was pretty certain I am beat when he shoves but can we actually fold hands after putting in that much money? Should I have not bet the turn? I mean when you look at it I am not really beating much after the turn. Sample size is small but Villain has FCB stat of 83%.
 
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ScottishMatt

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I check flop. You obv have a nutty VsUTG 3Betting range esp OOP and he knows this. You will at most get two streets from a worse hand if you stick to being the aggressor. Check/Call is good because it allows you to sometimes get three streets from worse, balances for when you have KK/QQ and gives you plenty of info because you'll be able to range him suitably based on the line he takes IP and act accordingly.

FWIW I wouldn't even have bet the turn. Nothing worse is calling you.
 
Thinker_145

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I check flop. You obv have a nutty VsUTG 3Betting range esp OOP and he knows this. You will at most get two streets from a worse hand if you stick to being the aggressor. Check/Call is good because it allows you to sometimes get three streets from worse, balances for when you have KK/QQ and gives you plenty of info because you'll be able to range him suitably based on the line he takes IP and act accordingly.

FWIW I wouldn't even have bet the turn. Nothing worse is calling you.

Makes sense although I still believe the flop should be bet to get value from AQs and to not allow our opponent a free card. It also helps our image to C bet the flop as much as possible.

But the big question is if we play this as you say then at what point do we fold? River shove?

What about the possibility that our opponent also has AK? That part always complicates matters with AK and it happens enough times to make it a consideration.

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ScottishMatt

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If he has AQ and you check flop you are only getting two streets from him no matter what, and if a Q comes on T/R then it comes on T/R. He isn't folding whether you do the betting or you X/C. What you do get is value from bluffs that you wouldn't otherwise be getting.

Also if he has AK/AJ and you check the turn he isn't going to be firing anyway, because that accomplishes nothing on his part.

By checking flop you can give him a free card but you also get free money when he fires with 55 to try and get your KQs/JJ/QQ/KK to fold.

Quick edit: the value from AQ part as the reasoning why you bet the flop. You are going to get that value anyway. Unless he is bad enough to call Cbet/TCbet and river jam with TPSK on a dry A high board after you 3Bet his UTG raise then you really don't win anything more by betting the flop. And you do your QQ/KK a disservice by lack of balancing.
 
IPlay

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I like checking flop too for pretty much the same reasons. As played I check the turn instead for pretty much same reason as flop except you are going to see less bluffs but nothing worse is calling.
 
Thinker_145

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I understand what both of you are saying and I'll definitely keep this in mind next time. It's also worth noting that AK gets set mined far less than AA/KK because we have to hit our hand first and our opponent only has 2 other cards to make a set.

Anyways so as far as this particular hand is concerned you guys agree that as long as our opponent kept betting we are losing our stack here?

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I believe if you check the turn every worse hand will check back for pot control unless he is floating you which I highly doubt. So yah, check evaluate OTT and if he tries to set up for a stackoff you are beat.
 
Aces2w1n

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make a note about 3betting this guy larger if he's willing to call with pocket 6's pre?

I'd bet the flop but check the turn.
 
weldphaser

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I like checking flop too for pretty much the same reasons. As played I check the turn instead for pretty much same reason as flop except you are going to see less bluffs but nothing worse is calling.

i think you have to cbet this flop, this guy is aggro but not bad so his utg open range is gotta be wider,

sucks you got pulled in a delayed set, but this happens
 
IPlay

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i think you have to cbet this flop, this guy is aggro but not bad so his utg open range is gotta be wider,

sucks you got pulled in a delayed set, but this happens

Why? You think he has a lot of dominated Ax that you get 3 streets of value from?
 
Thinker_145

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Why? You think he has a lot of dominated Ax that you get 3 streets of value from?

Okay let's say we have AA and replace the A on the flop with a K. Do you C bet the flop then? Why if yes?

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Figaroo2

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This is exactly like the classic opening scenario in the Harrington cash games books.
I will quote him "The problem here is your big bet on the turn, by making another big bet you are in the process of creating a monster pot which your hand doesn't justify. You can either bet the flop and check the turn or check the flop and bet the turn if there isn't any action. By playing the hand slower you can remove a betting round and keep the pot under control."
You are out of position and have a rather transparent top pair hand and you played like you had tpgk. Decent players like your opponent here won't put a lot of money into this pot unless they can beat or have a very good draw to beat tpgk.
Here you literally pot committed yourself with the massive turn bet, his bet is never a bluff, you are pot committed and are going to call it off. You could still have swallowed your pride realised this and saved yourself 36bb.
I'd say your flop bet was a bit too big as well. If hes going to fold/call half pot 3/4 pot makes little difference unless he's really weak.
If you had bet say 1/2 pot on the flop and turn you can still get away from this hand.
 
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Figaroo2

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Okay let's say we have AA and replace the A on the flop with a K. Do you C bet the flop then? Why if yes?

Its still only a 1 pair hand, you shouldn't normally be looking for 3 streets against accomplished players with a 1 pair hand. It is more likely you will get 2 streets of value from a Kx hand with an overpair but only really 3 from a weak player and your opponent in this hand has reg stats.
whichever why you play it bet 2 streets and not 3 and mix it up, check some of these behind so he doesn't know that a check means you have whiffed.
 
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Thinker_145

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Thanks everyone I think in this hand I simply did not give my opponent the respect he deserved. Against any sort of a fish I am betting this till the end every single time. From a GTO perspective I played the hand fine but I want to become better than just GTO.

And yes I agree 36BB can still be folded I really need to change my perspective of being pot committed because at best I have 3 outs here in the end. And most of the times dead. I tend to call off way too often after putting in over 50% of my stack in.

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Aces2w1n

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Thanks everyone I think in this hand I simply did not give my opponent the respect he deserved. Against any sort of a fish I am betting this till the end every single time. From a GTO perspective I played the hand fine but I want to become better than just GTO.

And yes I agree 36BB can still be folded I really need to change my perspective of being pot committed because at best I have 3 outs here in the end. And most of the times dead. I tend to call off way too often after putting in over 50% of my stack in.

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Some fish gets hands as well which really bites.
 
Aces2w1n

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Yep and it's needed so they keep coming back! ...I try and remember this after every bad beat
 
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Since you three bet pre, NEVER check the flop. But think the debatable mistake made was the s
sizing of the flop bet, this case 17BB. Think a lead of 10Bb has the same effect. Gives you information/value while esablishing some level of pot control. On the turn, I would consider a check/call or a 15/20 BB lead. On the river Id prob be in a check/call/fold mode. If the guy tries to balloon the pot, Id just dump the TP/TK and move on.
 
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check/call flop and try and get as much value as possible from that way.

if you do bet flop, check turn definitely for pot control and try and see a showdown/get a small value bet on the river. If he shows more agression on turn/river then fold
 
WVHillbilly

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I gotta disagree with everyone ITT. We have TPTK in a pot with an SPR under 5. I'm never folding or looking to control the size of the pot. I do likely check the flop but only because I'm looking to CR and I know that even if he doesn't bet I can still likely get all-in by the river.

Not saying this is the case here but I will say that I think you do yourself a disservice when you post results. People still likely tint their advice to the fact that you likely lost (people usually don't post their winners) but if they don't KNOW you often get better thoughts.
 
Figaroo2

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I agree with not posting the result of the hand. But with respect WVH
What is he shoving that we beat then?
Thinker the poster is quite tight you have to assume villain knows this and his stats look decent for 6max
We have one pair. Do you disagree with what Harrington wrote about how to play TPTK? It still seems spot on to me.
You are going to be spewing in the modern game trying to force 3 streets from good players with TPTK
The only hand that you might get 3 streets from is AQ but that now beats us.
 
c9h13no3

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I gotta disagree with everyone ITT. We have TPTK in a pot with an SPR under 5. I'm never folding or looking to control the size of the pot. I do likely check the flop but only because I'm looking to CR and I know that even if he doesn't bet I can still likely get all-in by the river.

Not saying this is the case here but I will say that I think you do yourself a disservice when you post results. People still likely tint their advice to the fact that you likely lost (people usually don't post their winners) but if they don't KNOW you often get better thoughts.
Yep. Folding TPTK in a pot with an SPR of 5 often is certainly a leak.
 
WVHillbilly

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I agree with not posting the result of the hand. But with respect WVH
What is he shoving that we beat then?
Thinker the poster is quite tight you have to assume villain knows this and his stats look decent for 6max
We have one pair. Do you disagree with what Harrington wrote about how to play TPTK? It still seems spot on to me.
You are going to be spewing in the modern game trying to force 3 streets from good players with TPTK
The only hand that you might get 3 streets from is AQ but that now beats us.

I don't have the book in front of me but Harrington's reference was almost certainly to a pot with no 3bet or deeper stacks. With the 3bet pre we get all-in with 2 streets.
 
c9h13no3

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The other takeaway from this hand is that villain set mines in 3-bet pots. Pretty easy leak to exploit.
 
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