$20 NLHE 6-max: TT facing aggression on a scary board ?

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razzor94

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 28/12/2.4

$0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $69.14 (345.7 bb)
BB: $20 (100 bb)
CO: $25.13 (125.7 bb)
BTN: $45.96 (229.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T
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T
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CO raises to $0.60, BTN folds, Hero raises to $1.80, BB folds, CO calls $1.20

Flop: ($3.80) 2
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J
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J
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(2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO calls $2

Turn: ($7.80) K
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(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $4, Hero calls $4

River: ($15.80) 6
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(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $7, Hero calls $7

Results: $29.80 pot ($1.49 rake)
Final Board: 2
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J
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J
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K
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6
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Really interested about what you think of my line and if you would play it differently ?
I only have 83 hands on villain so no additional info on him.
I made my decision based on the board, timing, ranges and the fact that we are 4 handed.
 
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John A

John A

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I'm not sure he's aggressive enough to justify calling down. But it depends on a lot more things that you didn't explain. Was this a 4 handed table, or did it just wind down to 4 players? What was the original table size? Is your opponent adjusting?

I think I just check flop and bet turn, but as played, bet turn ($~6) to get value from floats that turn draws and small pairs that still want to call down, and check / fold river.
 
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razzor94

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Original table is 6max but it broke down to 4.
I didnt want to cbet turn cause i dont know if he calls with worse on a K turn. He might fold his lower pairs and draws but he might bet them as a semibluff.
I was planing on calling the turn and then deciding the river based on his bet sizing.
I really think if he had Kx on the turn he would check it back even if it was AK and he probably wouldnt go for value turn and river with Kx.
When he bets the river i think his range is pretty polarized.
Its either Jx or a bluff.
It was hard for me becouse i had TT blockers for some straight semibluffs + T of clubs eliminates some reasonable FDs he could have.
Now that i think about it he really cant have that many bluffs in his range but in the moment i thought that given the price i was good 1/4 of the time.
Also he used his time bank when making a river decision. If he had Jx i think he would make his decision quicker.
 
John A

John A

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Well how you play the turn depends on how you play other ranges of hands in similar spots, and the kind of opponent you're against.

If you were checking the turn, planning on calling, that's fine... IF you understand your opponent, or generally what kind of player he is. If you're unsure, then I'd generally recommend betting the turn for value, even if it folds out some worse hands. Not having a plan and check/guessing can end up costing you a lot more money.

For example, you check turn, your opponent bets and you call. Your plan is to check/call most reasonable rivers, but you check and your opponent bets 2/3rd pot. His bluffing range should be high in this spot, so you're almost getting the correct price. But you fold, and now you didn't get to showdown and you lost your turn call.

What's the difference between you betting the turn and your opponent calling, and you check/folding the river? The difference is the kind of opponent you're facing, and how much it will widen his bluffing range when you check on a paired board like that. Paired boards open up people's bluffing range + you checking should also widen their bluffing range. So the more aggressive they are, the more I like checking the turn. The less aggressive they are, the more I like just betting the turn for value because you're primarily counting on a bluffing range to justify calling down in this spot. Now if they are really tight or nitty, then I like your plan. Check, expecting them to check most of their range. Check and evaluate river.
 
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razzor94

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Well how you play the turn depends on how you play other ranges of hands in similar spots, and the kind of opponent you're against.

If you were checking the turn, planning on calling, that's fine... IF you understand your opponent, or generally what kind of player he is. If you're unsure, then I'd generally recommend betting the turn for value, even if it folds out some worse hands. Not having a plan and check/guessing can end up costing you a lot more money.

For example, you check turn, your opponent bets and you call. Your plan is to check/call most reasonable rivers, but you check and your opponent bets 2/3rd pot. His bluffing range should be high in this spot, so you're almost getting the correct price. But you fold, and now you didn't get to showdown and you lost your turn call.

What's the difference between you betting the turn and your opponent calling, and you check/folding the river? The difference is the kind of opponent you're facing, and how much it will widen his bluffing range when you check on a paired board like that. Paired boards open up people's bluffing range + you checking should also widen their bluffing range. So the more aggressive they are, the more I like checking the turn. The less aggressive they are, the more I like just betting the turn for value because you're primarily counting on a bluffing range to justify calling down in this spot. Now if they are really tight or nitty, then I like your plan. Check, expecting them to check most of their range. Check and evaluate river.

I understand that if i call turn and fold to any river bet its going to lose me money. I might as well fold the turn.
I like the idea of betting thin on the turn because recently i found a leak in my game and that is checking too much on the turn in spots like this and proceeding with calling and check-call/check-folding the river.
In spots like this i usually bet either with the effective nuts or with air and check my SD value hands. That made my opponents continue only with the top of their range and fold the mediocre and worse if i bet.
When i check i see myself calling too much turn and river IP or OOP.
Also i almost always used 2/3 pot betting on the flop and turn that made my river decisions pretty hard especially OOP.
I adjusted my bet sizing, but i didnt play my hands correctly i think. All my bets in these spots made my range polarized.
I will try to implement some thin value bets here and make my opponents guess particularly OOP. I guess its better to bet small turn and fold to a CR or bet turn and then depending what comes on the river go for thin value or for a check bluff catcher.
I am experimenting still with my bet sizing but still think against weaker opponents i should just go ABC and i shouldnt care too much about balancing.
I am interested still if i am betting TT here are there hands in my range i can check here ? If i am not checking TT with what hands can i do it if any ? Or is it player dependent ?
 
John A

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First of all... :) At these stakes, it's good to understand balance, GTO play, but trust me when I say your opponents aren't thinking and understanding this well enough to know how to exploit you. The main thing that understanding balance will help you with in these spots is bluffing, and picking off bluffs. If you grasp this concept, that's where you'll benefit most.

As far as your questions, assuming you mean against an avg reg in your games, I wouldn't play this hand at all like this, so the entire thinking changes. But if you're betting the flop, then you should be betting your air, your trips, FH's and 99+ on the turn. Sizing is super important.

But typically speaking (with some exceptions), I check paired boards OOP with nearly my entire range, unless there's some coordination. I'd c/c trips, boats, pairs, high Broadway hands. I don't need to be super balanced in this spot unless my opponent is really good, and then I'm betting my trips, high pairs, and some AK type hands. But generally I'm checking to induce a bet w/ worse, and not get bluffed off my hand. Then I'd lead most turns with that same range as I stated above.

Keep experimenting with your sizing. You sound like someone I've heard a million times on forums over the years who thinks you need to bet the exact same size, and have a completely balanced range in every spot, which is lol... I've coached tons of winning players over the years at your stakes and above and none of them are considering how balanced your are.
 
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braveslice

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I don't really understand logic behind check flop, bet turn. Well I understand check flop, but why we bet when K shows up on the turn. That is a scare card right? So we are turning our hand to a bluff that opponent thinks is a bluff because it's a paired board and calls light and so we are actually betting for value? lol, correct?
 
IPlay

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We should be 3 betting larger pre this deep while being OOP. AP I prefer a x/call on turn and x/fold river if villain bets again. Villain is only raising 12% of hands and called a 3 bet. His range has to be pretty strong when he barrels off.

braveslice does bring up a good point, I don't mind checking flop and betting turn but a K turn seems like one of the worst to take this line with. Unless it is for a pure balance reason(which I think it is) because we will be betting the K turn with almost all of our misses so we should also value bet wider so we bet 1010 for value.
 
Figaroo2

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Nice thread, 28/12 stats are I think worthy of comment especially at 20nl 6 max. Only open raising a 12% range but calling so wide indicates a guy who only opens his stronger hands but likes to see a lot of flops. Just opening his stronger stuff I'd expect him to also call a lot of 3bets probably nearly all in position.

His stats are pretty fishy tbh, especially if you have been 4 handed for a while.
I would suspect most players are going to call with nearly everything on the flop. All his mid pairs should none believe and he likely floats all his overcards.
I hear what John says about checking these paired boards and against good players I totally agree.

Personally at these stakes and with him being fishy and calling wide I'd expect to be a 60%/40 fav at least so I'd bet the flop pretty big for value and to protect my hand and not give a free card to a hand highly likely to have a lot of overcard equity but not many jacks.

Once the King comes I think there is value from another bet, partly for information and partly as you can fold out all his Ax which has whiffed but still has equity against you like AQ but if he calls again the river is a check fold as he's got plenty of kings in his range.
His river sizing suggests mainly Kx to me, I think Jx might go a bit larger and it even crossed my mind for a moment that he might even bet fold Kx to a shove if he has a low wtsd but is he good enough to lay down AK? probably not.
 
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