£20 NLHE 6-max: Top and third pair facing turn shove.

Thinker_145

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iPoker - £0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 42.6 BB (VPIP: 71.05, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 39)
CO: 120.2 BB (VPIP: 20.27, PFR: 16.75, 3Bet Preflop: 3.76, Hands: 602)
BTN: 100.9 BB (VPIP: 34.57, PFR: 18.96, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 278)
Hero (SB): 118.75 BB
BB: 40 BB (VPIP: 25.32, PFR: 22.51, 3Bet Preflop: 11.68, Hands: 398)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:club: 7:club:

UTG raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, Hero calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (13 BB, 4 players) Q:spade: A:heart: 7:heart:
Hero bets 10.4 BB, fold, CO calls 10.4 BB, fold

Turn: (33.8 BB, 2 players) 3:spade:
Hero bets 27 BB, CO raises to 106.8 BB and is all-in, Hero :confused:

Villain is a good player and does not 3 bet AQ. Must be noted that the possibility of a set is almost none here so it's only really AQ that is beating us. So what's your decision?
 
Aces2w1n

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I'm never a fan of 2paired hands getting too out of control. Especially when it ain't top 2.

Flush draws there but our villain ain't the type to go crazy and spaz out with extra equity.

I'm folding the fact that we have shown strength and he shoves over the top. he ain't afraid of the Ace and he doesn't want flush/straights completing.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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If the fish folds well to cbets, I want to squeeze pre.

Turn is super gross. There are a lot of pair+flush draw hands in his range, and A3 could be there too. Got an aggression frequency stat? This is probably 0 EV folding or calling too, gross spot.
 
IPlay

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Tough spot, villain could of slow played flop hoping the fish UTG would come along and with you showing so much strength he thinks you will call all in on turn. CO also seems quite straightforward so probably not much FPS going on with him, I think I find a nitty fold vs this exact villain. I also don't bet turn so large. You seem to get yourself into a lot of tough spots with your 80%+ pot bet sizings and when you are betting that large it is hard to get away but it does turn villains, especially TAG villains, hands face up. I like these sizings vs fish but I think against regs you need to tone it down some.
 
Thinker_145

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Tough spot, villain could of slow played flop hoping the fish UTG would come along and with you showing so much strength he thinks you will call all in on turn. CO also seems quite straightforward so probably not much FPS going on with him, I think I find a nitty fold vs this exact villain. I also don't bet turn so large. You seem to get yourself into a lot of tough spots with your 80%+ pot bet sizings and when you are betting that large it is hard to get away but it does turn villains, especially TAG villains, hands face up. I like these sizings vs fish but I think against regs you need to tone it down some.

I like to keep my betting consistent on different streets against regs. I bet 80% on the flop and since the turn didn't change anything I felt I should keep up. The reg flatting me on the flop IP could have a huge range of hands here including flush draws and top pair.

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Thinker_145

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Oh BTW the fish had already folded before the CO so no point of slow playing to keep the fish in. Although there is a bigger point in slow playing to keep me in lol.

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IPlay

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Oh BTW the fish had already folded before the CO so no point of slow playing to keep the fish in. Although there is a bigger point in slow playing to keep me in lol.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

Right, didn't realize you donked into a fish that raised UTG and has 39bb left. Perfect spot to check/raise all in here.

Besides that though, this villain doesn't seem like he has Ax suited hands so you can eliminate those and do you think he flats 77 against a short stack here? Does he bluff raise a draw on turn after you basically pot two streets? I can't see what else he can have besides AQ here. I think game flow/meta is a big factor in assigning villain a range here. Normally tight players won't call with 77 against a shorty but if he has been spewing everywhere, then maybe he does. I'd like to give him a range of AQ, A3s, A7s, and 77 but the latter 3 hands don't make sense to play against a shorty since you have no implied odds.

If the fish folds well to cbets, I want to squeeze pre.

Squeezing a fish that only raises 10% of hands that raised UTG AND has a 40bb stack from the blinds with A7s is beyond terrible. Just be happy you are getting 4 to 1 on a call vs 2 fish pre.
 
Thinker_145

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From the small sample this fish didn't seem aggressive hence why I donked. If he has hit an ace or even has KK he is giving all his money anyways.

Yes I agree about calling with 77 part not to mention we are blocking it. But then again there are many regs who don't look at fish stacks and just play the hands that they play so A3s is a possibility.

Not been playing with this reg in a long while but from what I see seems fairly standard. He did tank the turn and all the while I was thinking he is not sure what to do with his FD now. Suited Ace might have shown more aggression on the flop? Perhaps he could also have KQs/KJs?

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IPlay

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Fair enough on the donk.

I was thinking about K10ss or KJss but I doubt he has many KQ combos doing this. If he had KQhh that he wanted to bluff with, wouldn't he do that on flop and not on turn when his equity gets lowered?

Really is a gross spot and really hard to range him since he just flatted against a short stack and this weird line he has taken.

If I had to range him here I would say AQ, K10ss, KJss, A3ss which makes it a call off? Don't want to pull out a calc but it is close
 
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joe777

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Based on the villain bet size,i would fold.
 
Thinker_145

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I did call and Villain showed AQ. However I hit a 2 outer. 😆
 
Aces2w1n

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lol I also got another answer now... 3bet and isolate the fish :)

good players or tightish players will give up AQ KQ hands. Then your just fighting the bad player and that's what we want.
 
Thinker_145

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lol I also got another answer now... 3bet and isolate the fish :)

good players or tightish players will give up AQ KQ hands. Then your just fighting the bad player and that's what we want.
Why would I wanna do that against a short stack fish who rarely raises pre flop?
 
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hffjd2000

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I would read him either 77 or Ax- AQ or A3 possibility.

Villain somewhat like very tight passive and would less bluff at this point.

I definitely would fold.
 
Aces2w1n

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Why would I wanna do that against a short stack fish who rarely raises pre flop?


because we have skill and positional edge...

hes a bad player... so should be ez money.... someone passive like that or calling station will help us control the potsize.

when he beats us we will lose less than when we beat him. You know this.


last thing as well.

Mutliway pot = stronger your hand will need to be when beating opponents. More players your hand won't hold up being only 2 pair on average.
 
Thinker_145

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because we have skill and positional edge...

hes a bad player... so should be ez money.... someone passive like that or calling station will help us control the potsize.

when he beats us we will lose less than when we beat him. You know this.


last thing as well.

Mutliway pot = stronger your hand will need to be when beating opponents. More players your hand won't hold up being only 2 pair on average.
I am not following this. You are saying I should 3 bet a fish OOP whose 2 bet range has likely got us crushed? What "skill" are we talking about here? You need to hit flops to outplay passive short stack fish. I wonld actually fold this hand pre if the price wasn't so good. I have a hand that rarely gets into full stack cooler scenarios and this wasn't really a cooler given my opponent I really should have folded.

I maybe wrong but I just believe there is no point bloating the pot against short stack fish pre with non premium hands when I can just take all their money when I hit. It's always nice to isolate but the price and risk involved here is just not worth it.
 
Aces2w1n

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Your looking at your cards rather than your opponents range... your ahead and bloating for value

And keeping the tight good player out with a range that beats us
 
Thinker_145

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How is A7s ahead of a 10% range?
 
IPlay

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Your looking at your cards rather than your opponents range... your ahead and bloating for value

And keeping the tight good player out with a range that beats us

He is ahead of his limping range, not raising range
 
Aces2w1n

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Omg lol

I give up

The point is hes a bad player and more likely going to pay u off. But u let the good reg own u
 
Thinker_145

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Omg lol

I give up

The point is hes a bad player and more likely going to pay u off. But u let the good reg own u
You are making taking money from bad players seem easier than it is. No seriously let's see this.

I squeeze here and the fish comes over the top then what?

I squeeze fish calls and we brick the flop what then?

I squeeze fish calls and we hit top pair. We c bet fish shoves now what?

What would have happened here most probably is that I squeeze fish calls which entices the reg to call his AQ IP and we have this flop. Same outcome.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Aces I see what you are saying -

I don't really think 3betting here is for value - more of a semi -bluff against a player that you can beat most of the time postflop. Like Aces says, you won't always beat him, but when you lose it won't be much because you can read him better than he can read you.

In addition, value is created from much of the limping dead money layover. Cbet most boards to take it down. If you get a float from UTG you can pretty much guess that you are beat...might be a better +EVway to play here.
 
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c9h13no3

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I squeeze here and the fish comes over the top then what?
Is this a question? I know you have a question mark at the end, but...

I squeeze fish calls and we brick the flop what then?
We c-bet and most fish fold >60% of the time.

I squeeze fish calls and we hit top pair. We c bet fish shoves now what?
We fold. Passive players don't shove worse.

Same outcome.
You know all the possible outcomes are what matters, not just this 1 hand.

Even though he raises tight (10%), that range of hands is pretty likely to whiff the flop. There's a lot of dead money in there as well. So squeeze & c-bet probably shows a profit here, while nut-mining in a multi-way pot, meht.
 
Thinker_145

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So the Villain has 42BB. If I squeeze here it has to be something like 15BB. Are you really suggesting we just fold to a shove now? How incredibly stupid is our 3 bet if we don't plan to call a 4 bet with those stacks?

And did you actually say that there is such a thing as fold after a c bet in this hand?
 
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CO's range should be pretty strong flatting an UTG raise. Most of the time we are seeing pocket pairs and strong broadways, sometimes QQ/AA from more passive fish. You are basically beating nothing for 120bb here OTT. AQ makes a lot of sense here. And you block 77, and it's not likely he has QQ/AA here, but it does not mean that it is impossible for him to have. You're bombing both flop and turn, yet he still comes over the top. He has AQ a vast majority of the time here, and sometimes 77 and maybe very rarely AA/QQ. You're really only beating A3s, which doesn't always jam on this type of board OTT.
 
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