£20 NLHE 6-max: Should I check the river or is this just a cooler hand that can't be avoided?

Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
£20 NLHE 6-max: Should I check the river or is this just a cooler hand that can't be avoided?

Having so little info on the villain I thought I might be getting value from 2 pair/set or even 56. However I know if I check the river he is probably making a pot sized bet which would have saved me a lot of $.

iPoker - £0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 157.9 BB
UTG: 112.7 BB (VPIP: 38.85, PFR: 18.39, 3Bet Preflop: 1.46, hands: 439)
MP: 137.6 BB (VPIP: 76.33, PFR: 8.37, 3Bet Preflop: 4.85, Hands: 499)
CO: 109.9 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 36)
BTN: 49.15 BB (VPIP: 75.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
SB: 393.7 BB (VPIP: 38.08, PFR: 22.18, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 246)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6:diamond: T:heart:

fold, MP calls 1 BB, CO calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, fold, Hero checks

Flop: (4.5 BB, 4 players) 9:diamond: 8:club: 7:heart:
Hero bets 3.15 BB, fold, CO calls 3.15 BB, fold

Turn: (10.8 BB, 2 players) J:diamond:
Hero bets 7.55 BB, CO calls 7.55 BB

River: (25.9 BB, 2 players) A:spade:
Hero bets 18.1 BB, CO raises to 98.2 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 80.1 BB

Hero mucks 6:diamond: T:heart: (Straight, Jack High) (Pre 26%, Flop 78%, Turn 3%)
CO shows T:diamond: Q:spade: (Straight, Queen High) (Pre 74%, Flop 22%, Turn 97%)
CO wins 211.2 BB

We can't ever fold this against unknown villain right?
 
T

tomnovember

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Total posts
598
Chips
0
I don't think you can call the river allin from your villain...
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
Cooler. You are only beaten by exactly QT any hand with a Ten can make this bet. You pretty much have to call here and should expect to chop this pot the vast majority of the time.
 
stately7

stately7

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Total posts
365
Chips
0
I think a check / call on the river is fine here as you're most likely chopping, possibly winning, and only remotely possibly losing to exactly Q10, which is a cooler yeah. Still check river though.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
If I was playing against a reg I would check the river but you know how crazy some players can really be so I thought I had to bet here for value.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk
 
stately7

stately7

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Total posts
365
Chips
0
Yeah villain dependant and hard to say but only 36 hands of info, and also 56, two pair or a set raises the flop unless opponent is seriously bad. So when turn is called, it looks a lot like a 10 imho.
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
You cant get away from it if you get married to it. Wrapped str8s are a bitch, and marrying one was a ,,,,is a mistake.

Villains VP of 50 says he most certainly can have the cards you don't have. His river jam should convince you, but you did get married to the wrapped str8. 36 hands is enough to get an idea about what any villain is capable of in one session. Of course we would want a bigger sample, but during that session villain was obviously playing a bit loose,

Go play Omaha till you can easily dump hands that really should scare the shit out of you.
 
K

KcWick

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Total posts
80
Chips
0
Check call river for me is correct play. might catch bluffs or sets and two pairs betting for value also chopping a lot while not having to pay the whole thing to the nuts
 
T

tomnovember

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Total posts
598
Chips
0
If I was playing against a reg I would check the river but you know how crazy some players can really be so I thought I had to bet here for value.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

I can not see any reason the villain can go allin here with out a T
 
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Total posts
1,039
Chips
0
This is a bit of a cooler hand. To get away from this i guess you could have tried to do some pot control from fourth street. Check calling two streets - turn and the river would've meant you lost less. But very easy to bet straight for value on the turn and river which is why this is a sort of cooler. Difficult to get away from such spots unless you know you do not have the nut straight and you pot control for some reason.:banghead:
 
J

joe777

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 3, 2014
Total posts
2,694
Chips
0
It a cooler and not many people can get away from that hand IMO.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
But even with a T, it is not necessary for him to shove here... right?

Ya a shove with a T is highly villain dependant and what he thinks of us. I think a lot of players would be putting up at least a min raise on the river with a T against an unknown.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk
 
T

tomnovember

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Total posts
598
Chips
0
Ya a shove with a T is highly villain dependant and what he thinks of us. I think a lot of players would be putting up at least a min raise on the river with a T against an unknown.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

But actually needless to shove right...? Such overpot shove is too strong that with only a T you can hardly call
 
alext9000

alext9000

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Total posts
74
Chips
0
if it asked you all-in you should consider that he got a better hand than you..that depends on you..how do you see that player..if he bluffs a lot or if he only play strong hands and don t make bad beats..once i lost an ace high flush against a straight flush..so.. I should have considered that my opponent has that hand?how would u play it..I think many of you guys would fall of in that trap
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
if it asked you all-in you should consider that he got a better hand than you..that depends on you..how do you see that player..if he bluffs a lot or if he only play strong hands and don t make bad beats..once i lost an ace high flush against a straight flush..so.. I should have considered that my opponent has that hand?how would u play it..I think many of you guys would fall of in that trap

Ah having ace high flush against straight flush on a board with no pair is one of the rarest bad beats in poker, it's not even remotely comparable to the one I had in this hand. If I ever lose such a hand I won't be making a thread on it because there is nothing to discuss in it.

Nobody is ever folding ace high flush on a board with no pair and the only time I might call instead of re raising is if there is an open ended 4 to a straight flush on the board and I am playing against a very tight player. And such a play is only possible in live poker because you can have much deeper understanding of someone's game than you will ever have online.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
I feel like everyone in this thread is being results orientated and never check calls flopped straights on the river when only Q10 is beating you.
 
C

Cymro

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Total posts
53
Chips
0
It's hard to give someone credit for the exact hand that beats you, but it happens. I had a situation not long ago where I had AK vs villain with 89s, flop came QJT rainbow, and I got his whole stack.

That said, I think I would have raised a bit more on the flop. You gave him too good a price to draw out on you, IMHO.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
It's hard to give someone credit for the exact hand that beats you, but it happens. I had a situation not long ago where I had AK vs villain with 89s, flop came QJT rainbow, and I got his whole stack.

That said, I think I would have raised a bit more on the flop. You gave him too good a price to draw out on you, IMHO.

Open ended straight draw on a rainbow board is never folding the flop IP. I might raise more if I had 65.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk
 
C

Cymro

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Total posts
53
Chips
0
Open ended straight draw on a rainbow board is never folding the flop IP.

Does that matter? Most of the time he's going to miss his J and isn't going to pay you off on the river, so betting more on the flop and turn gets you more value for the times you do win in this spot. The fact that he's called a serious bet might also make you play more cautiously on the next street, because the hand we're really scared of here is JT, and people play that a lot more often than 56.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
Does that matter? Most of the time he's going to miss his J and isn't going to pay you off on the river, so betting more on the flop and turn gets you more value for the times you do win in this spot. The fact that he's called a serious bet might also make you play more cautiously on the next street, because the hand we're really scared of here is JT, and people play that a lot more often than 56.

I just flopped a monster and I should make an over bet? I want top pair to call me and 2 pair to raise me neither of which is probably happening if I over bet.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
Its the cash thread, and there is little reason to seriously considering not seeing this hand out.

In this particular case, if it were a tourney game, serious consideration would be warranted.
 
C

Cymro

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Total posts
53
Chips
0
I just flopped a monster and I should make an over bet? I want top pair to call me and 2 pair to raise me neither of which is probably happening if I over bet.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

Yes. This is Microstakes. The bet size in relation to the pot is irrelevant to a lot of MS players, especially in a pot is this tiny. They're looking at the price in dollars, they're quite likely putting you on a bluff, and probably have some kind of draw to go with their TP. This is a nice board for someone with T9, JJ, J9, or QT, and a lot of the time you'll get a curiosity call. You could also be up against someone who's slow played a big pocket pair, or someone who's flopped a set of sevens, or even just has AK and both will have a tough time laying those down for less than $1.50.

A nitty player with A-9, or 9-8 here is probably just going to lay it down, or at best fold the turn, so you want to get the value in wherever you can against people who will call you to the river.

Microstakes players love catching out bluffs and love hitting their gutshots, and some of them will pay any price - even their whole stack - to make them. I see absolutely no harm in over-betting here. Your opponents both have ridiculously high VPIP stats anyway, so they might well call if they have any piece of that.
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
I agree those above, you should do the pot control on the river. Im hoping for a split.

I just thought your call on the river is terrible.
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top