$20 NLHE 6-max: QQ facing vs. nit flop and turn aggression

$20 NL HE 6-max: QQ facing vs. nit flop and turn aggression

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 23/14/11

This guy has been playing fairly tight. I flat his pf raise in position because I didn't really feel like 3-betting him. The reason I'm not sure if 3-betting here is good because I don't want to stack off if he 4-bet shoves me since he's 23/14. By choosing to flat though, am I essentially set-mining IP since I'm folding to any post-flop aggression? I flat his flop c-bet because I think AK is certainly going to take a stab at that flop, but once he bets $5.50 into an $8.10 pot on the turn, I'm assuming he's betting for value and not firing a second bullet with air. Once he bets the turn, it's pretty clear to me that he's repping KK or AA, but is folding the best option here? I really do feel like I played this hand horribly, and I'd like to know what line is best. Results withheld until I have some feedback.

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HAND #1
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poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BB: $8.95 (35.8 bb)
UTG: $7.25 (29 bb)
MP: $32.30 (129.2 bb)
CO: $12.60 (50.4 bb)
Hero (BTN): $25 (100 bb)
SB: $36.55 (146.2 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with Q:diamond: Q:heart:
UTG calls $0.25, MP raises to $1.25, CO folds, Hero calls $1.25, 3 folds

Flop: ($3.10) J:heart: 7:club: 8:club: (2 players)
MP bets $2.50, Hero calls $2.50

Turn: ($8.10) 4:club: (2 players)
MP bets $5.50

You have to 3bet this preflop, especially with the limper being a factor. He'll sometimes come along, taking some (more) of your equity share in the pot, and the fact that there was a limper means that MP will have a wider range for the isolation play.

Flatting isn't terrible, but the majority of the time you should be 3betting and playing for stacks. His fold to 3bet/4bet numbers may sway that decision though.

As played his range is much wider than AA/KK, and no we're not just playing for set mining value. Our hand is now MORE disguised, and he'll think hands like AJ or TT are good here and keep betting. He could also be semibluffing a big club or other draw here.

Not sure how to play it from here, most likely call and maybe fold to a river bet, but the point is you should be 3betting pf here.

Absolutely 3 bet this hand. Seriously. 100% of the time. In 6max I get it in with QQ preflop. Pretty sure that's standard.

Anyways ... as played at the flop why is there no raise of his cbet? Slowplaying just an overpair? Hate to tell you but just having an overpair ain't a big deal and its not a monster in any remote sense. RAISE. Scare the crap out of that flush draw.

Turn ... At this point there's now $13.60 in the pot and it looks like he's either made the nuts (flush) or is trying to take the pot now and will fold to any raise. I guess calling the turn since straights/flushes are there and re-evaluating the river is best. Probably fold if he stacks.

icemonkey9 said:

Absolutely 3 bet this hand. Seriously. 100% of the time. In 6max I get it in with QQ preflop. Pretty sure that's standard.

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I would have said so a year ago. Nowadays I'm not sure stacking off pre flop with QQ is +EV. Dependant on what level you play at, and obviously player dependant.

I haven't got a large enough database to look in to it deep enough, but you seem to come up against AQ, AJ, JJ 10 10 far less often than you used to. Most times it is either AK KK or AA. It is still a good hand though and 3 betting is definitely the default play.

I don't mind a flat though in position. I mean if you 3 bet a nit, you are making him fold all the hands you crush, and he is 4 betting you with the hands you beat. Once in a while I see a flop with it, it balances your range too.

As played, I 3 bet the flop prepared to stack off. On the turn looks like bad news. Probably a fold because you have to expect another bet on the river.

Blazing_Saddler said:

I would have said so a year ago. Nowadays I'm not sure stacking off pre flop with QQ is +EV. Dependant on what level you play at, and obviously player dependant.

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over 141k hands in my DB QQ is my 3rd most winning hand and i 3bet 96.8% of the time. for some reason my HEM wont bring up the stats for when i stack it preflop (found the filter but the data box goes blank when i apply it) but im still stacking this like 99% in a HU pot.

Deltafrost said:

over 141k hands in my DB QQ is my 3rd most winning hand and i 3bet 96.8% of the time. for some reason my HEM wont bring up the stats for when i stack it preflop (found the filter but the data box goes blank when i apply it) but im still stacking this like 99% in a HU pot.

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I guess I may be wrong. I do 3 bet QQ 90% of the time. Possibly more. I hate being 4 bet with it though. I do lay it down to some of the nits on $25 NL. Some of them I have like 20000 hands on them and they only 4 bet KK and AA. Guess that is read dependant.

if i could get HEM to filter for when i stack preflop correctly then i could tell you my findings...but HEM owns me when i try it. blank screen FTL

this hands a train wreck

3-bet like others have said and for the love of god you cant slowplay one pair hands so just get it in by raising at all possible spots

Deltafrost said:

if i could get HEM to filter for when i stack preflop correctly then i could tell you my findings...but HEM owns me when i try it. blank screen FTL

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That sucks. By the way, I wasn't knocking your point. I am genuinely interested in this kind of thing. I am always looking to find +EV situations. One would think Stacking with the 3rd best hand would be a no brainer, and you are probably correct that it is a winner. However I do feel that it is a closer thing than it used to be. You don't see so many players these days who will ship it pre flop with JJ- 1010 and worse.

*Edit*

I just quickly tried it on my Holdem manager. I just went to Cash Game - Filter -Edit/ - More filters - Then add the All in preflop= true. Then all your hands that got the money in pre flop come up. You can then obviously edit the whole cards to QQ

I got it working. For some reason HEM will do the filter if i apply it, then switch to the holecards menu from the dropdown. But if i go to holecards then apply the filter it goes blank.

anyways it looks like you are right when it comes to stacking QQ preflop. I filtered for just my 6max hands in case that has a difference, but QQ is a pretty big loser AIPF.

This is all 5nl and 10nl btw, so when you get higher limits and there is more agression/leveling I think stacking QQ is a no brainer. just maybe not right now at the micros.



Oh, and I never took it negatively. I was just debating the truthfulness of your argument, looks like i argued incorrectly according to my DB.

To be fair it is a small sample, I mean I have no doubt you have a big database, but the long run, is a long time ! I mean look at you KK sample, it is hardly crushing it is it ? Give it a few more hundred times and I am sure it will be better.

I agree with you that at higher stakes people stack off with less. I was watching some hands of a database site the other day. Gus Hanson and Some other geezer who plays at very high limits on FT. They were going batshit insane between them, stacking off with like QJs preflop. For 200,000 stacks.

I did agree with what you were saying, Like I said a year or so ago, All in with QQ every time I got action, but these days players have got better, they wont go all the way with 10 10. They will flat your 3 bet instead of shoving on you.

Also what you have to take in to account is when you stacked off with these hands, there was already dead money in the pot some times when you called all in, or shoved all in. So it isn't as negative as your sample suggests. Marginal I think it is though