$20 NLHE 6-max: KK as NFD, turn options

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 21/17/3

351 hands on Villain, WTSD 33%, F 3b 63%. I was really lost on what to do on this turn, do you think check/shove works enough? Is there enough air in his range, can he fold some AT+ ? c/c seems too weak and fold feels meh-ish.

BTN: €21.31
Hero (SB): €37.52
BB: €21.16
UTG: €11.30

Hero posts SB €0.10, BB posts BB €0.20

Pre Flop: (€0.30) Hero has K:heart: K:spade:

fold, BTN raises to €0.70, Hero raises to €2.40, fold, BTN calls €1.70

Flop: (€5.00, 2 players) 6:spade: A:spade: T:club:
Hero checks, BTN bets €2.50, Hero calls €2.50

Turn: (€10.00, 2 players) 8:spade:
Hero checks, BTN bets €5.00

i know everybody has their own views but I like to cbet this flop when i have KK OOP. I do like the check/shove on the turn though

bgomez89 said:

i know everybody has their own views but I like to cbet this flop when i have KK OOP. I do like the check/shove on the turn though

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Don't like the cbet here... and I say fold turn.

Cbet- I guess smaller pairs fold... do we want them to? What does fold? Are we cbetting to charge draws? I don't get it.

Fold Turn- I just think he has an ace, was betting his flush draw OTF, flopped 2pair or a set more often than trying to pull off a multi street bluff.

I think villain could call a cbet with 77-99 JJ and maybe some FDs. If he has an ace we still can pick up equity on the turn with our back door fd/sd

bgomez89 said:

I think villain could call a cbet with 77-99 JJ and maybe some FDs. If he has an ace we still can pick up equity on the turn with our back door fd/sd

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But just doing a quick look without any calculations, are we getting enough odds to make this a profitable call on the turn?

bgomez89 said:

I think villain could call a cbet with 77-99 JJ and maybe some FDs. If he has an ace we still can pick up equity on the turn with our back door fd/sd

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I don't think calls very often w/ those med pairs... giving them a free card doesn't hurt much...

I mean, we 3bet him pre... he'd have to be pretty bad to continue w/ 77-99 w/ two over cards.

Draws call for sure though.

Honestly i just cbet this hoping to take it down on the flop/ get value from FDs

shinedown.45 said:

But just doing a quick look without any calculations, are we getting enough odds to make this a profitable call on the turn?

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We're getting 3:1 on a ~3.5:1 draw. So no. We might have $2.50 in implied odds, because we have the two kings & we dominate some other spades. Also, villain might give up on a bluff with QJ on the river. But either way you slice it, calling the turn isn't going to be much better than break even, even in the most optimistic cases.

Lines I like:

-Check/folding the flop
-Check/folding the turn as played

Lines I dislike:

-Check/calling the turn as played (not getting odds).
-Check/raising the turn as played (villain has very little $ behind).

^that.

Cbetting flop is also fine, and if I'm doing that I'm generally c/f most turns. QQ-, Tx etc usually flat flop and never bet turn, so there's really nothing we beat if/when villain bets turn.

Ya, c-bet this board as well.

c9h13no3 said:

Ya, c-bet this board as well.

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For... value?

ChuckTs said:

^that.

Cbetting flop is also fine, and if I'm doing that I'm generally c/f most turns. QQ-, Tx etc usually flat flop and never bet turn, so there's really nothing we beat if/when villain bets turn.

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Got it, didn't think it through just got scared of the A

c9h13no3 said:

Ya, c-bet this board as well.

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In regards to your previous post, the post is now $15 when villain bets and he has $11 behind, so maybe a shove can work? I think it's definitely more profitable than folding, with the FE we get from his air and the equity from the spades

Double-A said:

For... value?

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Not really since the range that calls you beats you. To pick up the dead money. And as a nice consequence, we get to avoid spots like this one.

The flop bet is villain-dependent obv.

The more straight-forward villain is in spots like these, the more likely I am to just check and play accordingly (if he's a one-and-done guy, I call once and c/f turn for ex).

Against competent players I just cbet flop. A good player won't bluff raise here that often (because they know they don't have monsters often, they don't always raise their draws, and they rarely raise AQ-AJ), will flat a fair bit of his range on the flop that we have beat (QQ-JJ, Tx, flush draws [which make it tough, but are a small enough part of his range given we have the Ks that we don't really give a shit], gutshots), but will make it tough to get to showdown should we check since our range is so transparent.

So it's for thin value, picking up dead money, and it has the added benefits of keeping us from making big mistakes by calling or folding at improper frequencies when we check.

ComplexPlaya said:

Not really since the range that calls you beats you. To pick up the dead money. And as a nice consequence, we get to avoid spots like this one.

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The dead money is there when villain has QQ-88?

ChuckTs said:

The flop bet is villain-dependent obv.

Against competent players I just cbet flop. A good player won't bluff raise here that often (because they know they don't have monsters often, they don't always raise their draws, and they rarely raise AQ-AJ), will flat a fair bit of his range on the flop that we have beat (QQ-JJ, Tx, flush draws [which make it tough, but are a small enough part of his range given we have the Ks that we don't really give a shit], gutshots), but will make it tough to get to showdown should we check since our range is so transparent.

So it's for thin value, picking up dead money, and it has the added benefits of keeping us from making big mistakes by calling or folding at improper frequencies when we check.

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I really hadn't considered your points in bold... I still say check here... but it's giving me something to think about.

yes, cbet, i agree. but i say shove the turn. he keeps betting half pot, people like him don't bet half the pot for value from my experience. so he might have draws here, big one too, QJ with a spade. also if you shove he is capable of folding some Aces. like AJ. and, if he has you beat your K high flush is probably good.

i find it kinda hard to be dominated really bad here. I could be wrong, i have been wrong a few times before in my life