€20 NLHE 6-max: $ : J10, not really spectacular but asking how to value it

€20 NL HE 6-max: $ : J10, not really spectacular but asking how to value it

€0.10/€0.20 No Limit Holdem
Entraction
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG TPA_79 (€13.24)
UTG+1 Hero (€23.59)
MP1 doncel12 (€9.63)
MP2 dreexer (€23.20)
CO XiaoSha008c (€5.38)
BTN DALKURUSU (€32.12)
SB klimenjero (€9.15)
BB tvertnis (€24.54)

Pre-Flop: (€0.30, 8 players) Hero is UTG+1 J♥ 10♥
1 fold, Hero calls €0.20, 1 fold, dreexer calls €0.20, 2 folds, klimenjero calls €0.10, tvertnis checks

Flop: J♠ 9♥ 4♥ (€0.80, 4 players)
klimenjero checks, tvertnis checks, Hero ????

Bet, or wait for the vilains to possibly get something to increase the unraised pot?

I noticed that nobody else has posted in here yet, probably because this spot kinda sucks in some ways.

I am really not a fan of playing this hand in this position because of reasons that I'll discuss later. Limping is fine, but really we are lucky that we didn't end up OOP against a lot of players. Not really a big mistake though, just not my style.

The flop is kind of a good flop for us, but it has lots of problems. We have top pair with a bad kicker, and have no idea where we are if we bet and get callers, or if we check and the villain behind us bets (and we are OOP). Also our flush draw is not to the nut flush which could cost us our stack when it hits.

Problems aside I prefer the check/raise here. The reason is that we really don't mind a free card. With top pair/ bad kicker keeping the pot small is OK, although we get outdrawn sometimes. If villain behind us bets however, and there is a caller, then suddenly we are in a great spot to squeeze. We can really juice the pot for the times our flush hits, and we might get the opportunity to check down our bad Top pair.


Anyways just my opinion, I think this is an interesting enough spot that I would like some other peoples opinions.

Open limping suxxxxx.

c9h13no3 said:

Open limping suxxxxx.

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So in your opinion, never play a hand in cash games unless it's a raised pot? (Either by you or someone else)

c9h13no3 said:

Open limping suxxxxx.

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+1 mirrrrion

Open limping JTs utg+1 8 handed is just horrible (can't chuck it into the muck quick enough myself). With regard to the flop the people in the blinds have already checked and there is only one other person yet to act, I'm betting out to build the pot (TP with FD is likely the best hand, and the draw adds a lot of value to your hand) and the guy still to speak may well have limped with a pocket pair/AXs and come along. If I get re-raised I probably flat, but this is villain dependant. It's not too unreasonable if one of the blinds have 2 pair or for any of your opps possibly to have flopped a set given the action so as I say jamming/flatting/folding vs a re raise is entirely villain dependant.

You're only probably dominated by KJs & QJs, everything else 'better' in a pre flop sense is generally raising a limped pot pre imo. Sure there is a chance everyone may fold, but betting out > checking, I'm betting out €0.55 on the flop.

Turn play is entirely dependant on the flop action, who and how many come along, the turn card and the action before it gets to you, could be leading out/folding/check calling/check raising. You really want to be building a pot on the flop, if you complete your flush without betting out the flop the chances of you maximising value are slim

Yeah, I get it. I know I have to get a real RR (raising range) fast. I did bet and everyone folded, as expected, so ok now I know better...raise or fold!

I wouldn't mind playing JTs here if you raise or limp-reraise it. I think it's good to have one or two bluffs in your UTG raising range, as long as you don't get too stubborn with it.

ComplexPlaya said:

So in your opinion, never play a hand in cash games unless it's a raised pot? (Either by you or someone else)

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There are a very few spots to limp, and if you never did, you'd be missing out on very very very very little, since even in those select few cases where limping in is the best play, its not the best by very much.

baudib1 said:

I wouldn't mind playing JTs here if you raise or limp-reraise it. I think it's good to have one or two bluffs in your UTG raising range, as long as you don't get too stubborn with it.

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In full ring cash? No, just no.

What happens if you get 3bet, or your cbet doesn't go through on the flop... ? Whether you limp or raise, the calling range of your opponents will render it non profitable from the pittance you gain each time everyone folds. There is no reason to play JTs utg+1, or any mediocre hand for that matter in a NL20 game.

I thought it was 6-max -- if we get 3-bet we obviously fold.

c9h13no3 said:

There are a very few spots to limp, and if you never did, you'd be missing out on very very very very little, since even in those select few cases where limping in is the best play, its not the best by very much.

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Is that in reference to open lping specifically or limping ever? Like if you have a small pp on the button and there are several limpers still raise? Or do you limp to give yourself a big spr for when you hit your set?

Man I agree with Uber that this is a much more interesting spot than just- 'open limping sux'. Our hero made a slight mistake and now he has to deal with an interesting spot.

I also like check/raising the flop because of this scenario:

BB check, SB check, hero checks, MP bets, BB calls, Hero squeezes!

Their range is kinda weak because of the limping; and I would expect folds. However if the call it off, suddenly their range is better defined.

Before we condemn the OP for limping JTs UTG I think we should know about the table before we judge. JTs is a very good hand in a multiway pot and if the table is passive and loose I definitely don't mind a limp here. You really don't mind other callers with a hand like that.

I would probably bet the flop, and if I'm 3bet I would definitely consider 4 betting or shoving. You could also c/r if you felt that dreexer is the kind who would bet if everyone else checks. This is definitely the kind of pot I would like to be aggressive in. You're in very good shape and have plenty of outs if someone happens to have a better hand.

Against good thinking players it's good to balance UTG raising range with stuff like JTs just because sets are hard to make and it sucks to be put in a spot where villain knows your range is almost all overpairs and is just gonna own you IP knowing most of your range. If you can have low to mid SCs and Axs wheel-type hands you can flop some equity and can rep stuff on different boards including being able to rep hands stronger than just an overpair on a super-wet board.

That said if they're just going to call and play fit or fold it's just gonna be spew because in a vacuum JTs oop against a strong range which they'll have when they call your EP raise is gonna suck generally.

bubonicplay said:

Against good thinking players it's good to balance UTG raising range with stuff like JTs just because sets are hard to make and it sucks to be put in a spot where villain knows your range is almost all overpairs and is just gonna own you IP knowing most of your range. If you can have low to mid SCs and Axs wheel-type hands you can flop some equity and can rep stuff on different boards including being able to rep hands stronger than just an overpair on a super-wet board.

That said if they're just going to call and play fit or fold it's just gonna be spew because in a vacuum JTs oop against a strong range which they'll have when they call your EP raise is gonna suck generally.

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There is no need for range balancing at the 20NL level this hand was played at, I would think. But you bring some talk-worthy points.

So assuming the same hand at my current game - 50NL - it's generally better to raise it for range-balancing (not every time, of course) than to limp? Even on agressive tables with lots of 3bets and all?

And - I've yet to get a straight answer to this - assuming an unraised poit, is it your opinion it's a waste of time to limp any two cards (excluding serial raisers, maniacs on the table) and if they're worth playing you should raise them?

ComplexPlaya said:

There is no need for range balancing at the 20NL level this hand was played at, I would think. But you bring some talk-worthy points.

So assuming the same hand at my current game - 50NL - it's generally better to raise it for range-balancing (not every time, of course) than to limp? Even on agressive tables with lots of 3bets and all?

And - I've yet to get a straight answer to this - assuming an unraised poit, is it your opinion it's a waste of time to limp any two cards (excluding serial raisers, maniacs on the table) and if they're worth playing you should raise them?

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With your good hands you have to start to build a pot. Raising pre makes this happen.

In a nut shell if you had raised and got a call and then cbet and took the pot down straight away, you wouldn't have posted this hand as you would have earned suffcient value from the hand as played.

But there is no need to merge your preflop range. No what you are raising for value and no what is a bluff so you don't get caught up calling 3/4 bets with 78 oop etc because you think he's full of crap.

ComplexPlaya said:

There is no need for range balancing at the 20NL level this hand was played at, I would think. But you bring some talk-worthy points.

So assuming the same hand at my current game - 50NL - it's generally better to raise it for range-balancing (not every time, of course) than to limp? Even on agressive tables with lots of 3bets and all?

And - I've yet to get a straight answer to this - assuming an unraised poit, is it your opinion it's a waste of time to limp any two cards (excluding serial raisers, maniacs on the table) and if they're worth playing you should raise them?

Click to expand...

Well against good players they probably won't be 3-betting your EP opens much because your range is so strong and that's why you can raise stuff like JTs. You're protected from 3-bets by the fact that the bulk of your range is still QQ+/AK but also you protect your overpairs in postflop spots where you don't want to stack overpairs but don't want them to be able to just raise flop like 90% of the time and make you fold basically your entire range apart from sets. Honestly I don't do it that much at the stakes I play but if I ever do get to playing higher stakes I'll try it out and see how it goes, but for now it's just all theory based on what I've read and people I've talked to.

Oh and yeah without a very strong read it's just usually better to be raising if folded to you than limping. The problem with limping is you're going to end up playing pots oop with a ton of money behind when people know you have a weak range. A good player is going to exploit you a lot here. Now I know some people try to balance by limping big pairs but then you end up being less profitable with AA because you limp it and get into all kinds of trouble playing AA multi-way in limped pots all for the sake of balancing. Bottom line it's just a lot easier to 100% raise or fold if it's folded to you.