$20 NLHE 6-max: Did I over bet my hand?

Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
This is a live home game between friends.

The villain is a total maniac sitting at 350 BB(300 BB buy in). He is one of those players who will end up betting everything with nothing or a mediocre hand however he does not usually call everything without a big hand. When he is raising you he can have literally anything imaginable. When he check raises is usually when he has a real hand but that's not a certainty. I am sitting on his left which is perfect for me.

He is UTG and open raises 10 BB(very usual thing for him). I call with 55 and 2 more players call.

I am sitting with 300 BB(150 BB buy in).

The flop is Kc7c5d. Villain checks, I raise 20 BB, 2 folds and then villain raises to 60 BB. It is entirely possible that he has the nut flush draw or even 68 and it's just extremely difficult to fold my hand on any later street against this player. If he had a set then I am ready to lose everything. So I raise 210 BB, he tanks for a long time and folds AK. I have no doubt if I flat call his check raise he would lead big on the turn regardless of what came.

Now do you think that I should have taken a risk by just flat calling his check raise? I had a big enough hand to try to trap a maniac? Or do you suppose I should be happy with winning 90 BB? I feel I sometimes play far too aggressively and should take a little more risk in trapping loose players.
 
D

DonkeyH3AD

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Total posts
563
Chips
0
If You have read on player that constant betting You should not respect his raises much if only catch someting good (not necessery very good) reraise him
You played here good.
 
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Total posts
1,039
Chips
0
definitely should have flatted there, you scared away the fish with 4betting which is such a strong move. He would have most probably bet a large amount on the turn as you now suspect but it's a little too late.

When you 4bet, all kinds alarms went off in head and he just took off. Thats because of the kind of image you built up at the table. So you should play accordingly. Flatting his check raise would not have given him the info of the strength of your hand. That way you could have extracted more value at later streets.
 
T

thatgreekdude

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Total posts
1,024
Awards
1
Chips
1
you could of 4bet to around 120-140BBs, by raising so much you're just pot commited and villain can pick up on that, make him think he has fold equity say you leave 150 big blinds behind he might well assume you could just be making a move against his loose image and come over the top, erm flatting and trapping is probably the best option against a chip spewer, even if the flush hits can you really give this type of player credit? you would of most likely stacked him had you of just called.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
you could of 4bet to around 120-140BBs, by raising so much you're just pot commited and villain can pick up on that, make him think he has fold equity say you leave 150 big blinds behind he might well assume you could just be making a move against his loose image and come over the top, erm flatting and trapping is probably the best option against a chip spewer, even if the flush hits can you really give this type of player credit? you would of most likely stacked him had you of just called.

I think I agree with this. I should have 4 bet but lower. He would absolutely not fold TPTK with a smaller raise, he even asked me how much more I have and I only had 70 BB left.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Eh, lots of gross cards on the turn. I think I just look to get it in on the flop. And just shove all in on the flop, looks drawy-er to some players.

Also, another thing to note here is that he can lay down top pair. If he's doing that, set mining with 55 is a pretty big losing play here. Playing your small pair for set value is only going to show a profit when you can stack him on hands like this. Instead, tighten up against him, and assume you don't have any implied odds (which is how you should be playing a LAG anyways).
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
4bet smaller to a size he's likely to call with a good portion of his range. I'd try 140, maybe 150. Making it 210 will probably significantly increase how much of his range he'll fold, plus he can't really tell himself he has any FE, so he's not only less likely to call but also to semi-bluff shove.

Flatting lets him see the turn for free with his draws and with hands you're ahead of that he'd call a 4bet with. Plus you have to figure out how to get him to put more into the pot on the turn and river after you've shown strength by flatting, albeit less than by 4betting.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
BTW he had rabbit hunted and the turn was a K. :(

I don't exactly remember the river but it wasn't an A, K or 7.

These games are not just for money for us but also the sheer satisfaction of stacking off a friend and being the biggest winner on the table.

I did not show my hand and said I had AA. :p
 
spiderman637

spiderman637

RIP Buck
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Total posts
1,835
Chips
0
yeah, u probably overbet there...See, its all about what u have decided to do post flop....u should be clear urself whether u are ready to shove all or no at that satge...
if u r ready to shove all at that point, then it comes to how u are gonna make ur opponent shove his chips...the trick here is to make ur villian commit to shove rather than asking him to shove on face....i would suggest u should have made a reraise of say 120 bb..... that would have been a good trap to make him commit to the pot post turn or river,,,,
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
Its live home game. You are way way ahead.

Why scare away a LA with a very strong hand?

You could extract more chips at latter streets since you said he is a very aggressive player.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
These games are not just for money for us but also the sheer satisfaction of stacking off a friend and being the biggest winner on the table.
If this is important enough to affect the way the game is played, then why not state this read on the table up front?
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
If he is a maniac bettor then show weakness and rope a dope him. Maniacs hate getting flat called. They see calling as weakness and bet bigger and bigger to try and shunt you from the hand. If you flat his check raise then he is going to barrel the turn large no matter what comes. If he is a true maniac he will shove either the turn or river.
I notice you say he is utg and you are in the bb so your betting sequence is wrong somewhere, anyway just call him down here; often TPTK is enough let alone a set.
Tight players making raises is what loose players look for to get away from a medium holding, you may as well send him a telegraph.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
If he is a maniac bettor then show weakness and rope a dope him. Maniacs hate getting flat called. They see calling as weakness and bet bigger and bigger to try and shunt you from the hand. If you flat his check raise then he is going to barrel the turn large no matter what comes. If he is a true maniac he will shove either the turn or river.
I notice you say he is utg and you are in the bb so your betting sequence is wrong somewhere, anyway just call him down here; often TPTK is enough let alone a set.
Tight players making raises is what loose players look for to get away from a medium holding, you may as well send him a telegraph.

I am not the BB I am UTG+1.
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Total posts
3,127
Chips
0
definitely should have flatted there, you scared away the fish with 4betting which is such a strong move. He would have most probably bet a large amount on the turn as you now suspect but it's a little too late.

When you 4bet, all kinds alarms went off in head and he just took off. Thats because of the kind of image you built up at the table. So you should play accordingly. Flatting his check raise would not have given him the info of the strength of your hand. That way you could have extracted more value at later streets.

We didn't 4bet, we 3betted villain.

Also, I'm definitely 3betting the flop to probably 120-140bbs hoping to get it in.
 
D

DunningKruger

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Total posts
1,030
Chips
0
Now do you think that I should have taken a risk by just flat calling his check raise?

What risk. You said you had no doubt he would lead big on the turn no matter what peeled (which commits him to the hand btw), so if that's true then ofc flat calling the raise would be better. Giving the player an opportunity to get away from the rank is the risk... under those circumstances.
 
D

DunningKruger

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Total posts
1,030
Chips
0
Away from the hand, rather. No clue how that came out as rank.

Most players are more inclined to stack off with an AA or AK hand here on the flop instead of the turn btw, but I'm trying to make a point about correctly translating the information you have at your disposal into an appropriate course of action. It's such a fundamental poker skill and so many players here have varying degrees of trouble with it.
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top