£20 NLHE 6-max: Good fold? What happened here?

Thinker_145

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I am sorry if I am making too many threads in this forum as I am just playing a lil too much poker these days and there always comes one or 2 hands that I really want to talk about. And the input I get here is usually priceless. So bear with me. :)

Anyways on to the hand,

iPoker - £0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 105.2 BB (VPIP: 35.71, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
BTN: 202.55 BB (VPIP: 56.39, PFR: 15.82, 3Bet Preflop: 5.02, Hands: 503)
Hero (SB): 104.8 BB
BB: 126.1 BB (VPIP: 25.04, PFR: 19.16, 3Bet Preflop: 5.85, Hands: 2,399)
UTG: 37.95 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
MP: 11.9 BB (VPIP: 39.13, PFR: 13.04, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 24)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:spade: Q:heart:

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 10 BB, BB calls 9 BB, UTG calls 7 BB

Flop: (30 BB, 3 players) 2:spade: 7:spade: 9:diamond:
Hero bets 15 BB, BB calls 15 BB, fold

Turn: (60 BB, 2 players) 4:diamond:
Hero checks, BB bets 25 BB, Hero calls 25 BB

River: (110 BB, 2 players) J:heart:
Hero checks, BB bets 55 BB, fold

BB wins 159.5 BB

So did he really cold call my 3 bet with 99/77?? When he bets the turn I am keeping him on JJ or AKss. I am not beating ANYTHING in the end so I give him credit and fold. But looking back at the hand its so strange I really don't know what he had. In the end I guess he had 99 or JJ? What are the chances I got bluffed here with AKss? Why did he make such a small turn bet? I think sometimes its just better to pay off. :confused:

Do keep in mind this guy does 4 bet AK but I suppose he won't always be doing this especially a cold 4 bet.
 
PCK

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Only hand you beat here is TT and a flush draw AK/AQ spades,the fold is good,like you said 77/99/JJ .
 
Figaroo2

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Such are the dynamics preflop it looks like you have the range pretty well. 77+ AK AQs at a push. Personally Id fold 77 & 88 but I might flat 99. you have to be strong enough to stand another raise by UTG.
So he could be putting you on a lot of AK and be getting sticky with TT & JJ...its possible, especially when you just check call the turn. So like u said 99 tt JJ or AKss makes sense. You have to fold 50% call 50% ish. (6 combos of sets beat you and you beat 7 of TT +AKss)
 
John A

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Mmm... it's only 5 hands in but it looks like he may be a fish. I'm betting every street and only folding to a raise against someone who might have a much wider range than you're giving him credit for.
 
Thinker_145

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Mmm... it's only 5 hands in but it looks like he may be a fish. I'm betting every street and only folding to a raise against someone who might have a much wider range than you're giving him credit for.

I think you misread the hand. We are playing the BB here not UTG. :)

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c9h13no3

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Mmm... it's only 5 hands in but it looks like he may be a fish. I'm betting every street and only folding to a raise against someone who might have a much wider range than you're giving him credit for.
This, not close. Playing an over-pair this passively is a clear leak.
 
Aces2w1n

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Are you guys serious only hand your beating is a TT are you on smack!!!?>!?!?!?!?!?! ...

Wide range. Could be any pockets most likely 22-TT, doubtful a set. and he doesn't have an overpair unless he's laying a trap but we don't mind if he is and we stack him, because he's a reg and we can catchup so many times against him in the future :)

We look like we could have Ak in this spot the way we played.

We should've re-raised the river for value. We lost value here :) I don't mind the line we took as long as we repop the river, remember all those draws didn't come out as well. it's highly doubtful he got T8 with a raise pre
and we are headsup so we should think we have the nuts here most times.
 
Figaroo2

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Are you guys serious only hand your beating is a TT are you on smack!!!?>!?!?!?!?!?! ...
Wide range. Could be any pockets most likely 22-TT, doubtful a set..

I disagree, here we are up against a reg flatting a 3bet in the bb with the initial raiser still to act. Utg may look fishy but it's only 5 hands on him and personally I wouldn't be 3betting him light from the SB at this point.
So what flats a 3bet in the bb here? anything less than 77 is dubious imo. And personally im not flatting less than 99 AQs certainly not any pair.
 
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I disagree, here we are up against a reg flatting a 3bet in the bb with the initial raiser still to act. Utg may look fishy but it's only 5 hands on him and personally I wouldn't be 3betting him light from the SB at this point.
So what flats a 3bet in the bb here? anything less than 77 is dubious imo. And personally im not flatting less than 99 AQs certainly not any pair.

i'd be flatting even less than that given the action, unless i was very confident i could outplay postflop. Probably JJ, QQ and AK are the only hands i'd flat there. i don't like setmining in 3b pots unless i'm really confident i can stack my opponent if i hit AND i have position. here i don't like calling with 99 because i find it hard to play in 3bet pots. like if one overcard (or even no overcard) comes on the flop, what are you going to do facing a cbet?
 
el_magiciann

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AJ spades????? BB flatting 3bet IP against SB, it may be AsJs your check at turn OOP is pretty weak, villain could be semi bluffing with AsJs and putting u on AQ, AK and seeing your CB weak after you just checked turn and river. But at all IMO the way the hand is played you made good fold.
 
Figaroo2

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this reg villain only ever flats 6% of hands and as this is a 3bet pot he flats way less than that here. Does he ever have small pairs/AJ here?
I actually think he could be a little wider flatting here than the hands Motto flats. BB will be in position over the SB.
If I had AK AA KK QQ id be raising in the bb. I would be thinking myself in the bb that the SB could be a bit wider than usual and just trying to isolate the fishy looking UTG player. I wouldn't raise lighter than that as utg is still in the hand and largely unknown .
So pretty much Im sticking with my original range.
 
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this reg villain only ever flats 6% of hands and as this is a 3bet pot he flats way less than that here. Does he ever have small pairs/AJ here?
I actually think he could be a little wider flatting here than the hands Motto flats. BB will be in position over the SB.
If I had AK AA KK QQ id be raising in the bb. I would be thinking myself in the bb that the SB could be a bit wider than usual and just trying to isolate the fishy looking UTG player. I wouldn't raise lighter than that as utg is still in the hand and largely unknown .
So pretty much Im sticking with my original range.

that's true reraising to isolate the fish, i hadn't thought about that properly. yes well in that case the optimal flatting range would be as you said. i forgot the UTG was a fish. but i still hate flatting 3bets with hands like 99 since (as mentioned elsewhere) i have no clue what to do when he cbets and board comes say J72, especially vs an unknown. but that's just me
 
H

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I understand that the BB is a reg, but I think that the majority of the commenters in this thread are giving him WAY TOO MUCH credit. I'll happily play a wide range for 10BBs if I'm in position against a reg whose game I know and I'm OOP versus a likely fish. And I'll definitely flat a 3-bet with 77 from the BB in a 3-way pot.

Anyway, I don't like the bet sizing from either of you on any street. This is a somewhat coordinated, wet flop and you bet half the pot? You're just asking for trouble with this bet sizing.

I have NO IDEA why you didn't lead the turn. Were you trying to induce a bet/bluff or were you exercising pot control? This line makes zero sense to me. It doesn't get you any value or allow you to better range your opponent. Additionally, his turn bet is so small that it screams draw, so as played I'm check-raising the turn here every time. If he shoves, then I call as I think a flush draw is more likely than a set here.

Finally, why call the turn if you're just going to fold to a half-pot river bet? You've given up the initiative on the turn, so you KNOW you're facing a substantial river bet against any two cards. If you're going to fold to a bet this size on the river, you should be folding the turn.

In summary, the only thing I like about how you played this hand is the preflop 3-bet and its sizing.

-HooDooKoo
 
Thinker_145

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I understand that the BB is a reg, but I think that the majority of the commenters in this thread are giving him WAY TOO MUCH credit. I'll happily play a wide range for 10BBs if I'm in position against a reg whose game I know and I'm OOP versus a likely fish. And I'll definitely flat a 3-bet with 77 from the BB in a 3-way pot.

Anyway, I don't like the bet sizing from either of you on any street. This is a somewhat coordinated, wet flop and you bet half the pot? You're just asking for trouble with this bet sizing.

I have NO IDEA why you didn't lead the turn. Were you trying to induce a bet/bluff or were you exercising pot control? This line makes zero sense to me. It doesn't get you any value or allow you to better range your opponent. Additionally, his turn bet is so small that it screams draw, so as played I'm check-raising the turn here every time. If he shoves, then I call as I think a flush draw is more likely than a set here.

Finally, why call the turn if you're just going to fold to a half-pot river bet? You've given up the initiative on the turn, so you KNOW you're facing a substantial river bet against any two cards. If you're going to fold to a bet this size on the river, you should be folding the turn.

In summary, the only thing I like about how you played this hand is the preflop 3-bet and its sizing.

-HooDooKoo

He raised me all in on the river so the size of the river bet is not relevant. I check the turn because I am only keeping PP in his range or AK. Why? Because I don't 3 bet light and I assume he knows that.

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H

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1. He didn't raise you on the river. You checked and he bet --- which was a literal certainty given the play on the turn.

2. The hand range you assigned to the villain is ridiculously narrow. Also, if your 3-betting range is that narrow, it's an OBVIOUS leak that will be exploited by good regs.

3. You didn't answer the most important question I asked. Why CALL the turn bet if you're just going to fold to a river bet? This, too, is an obvious leak that any good reg will exploit.

-HooDooKoo
 
Thinker_145

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1. He didn't raise you on the river. You checked and he bet --- which was a literal certainty given the play on the turn.

2. The hand range you assigned to the villain is ridiculously narrow. Also, if your 3-betting range is that narrow, it's an OBVIOUS leak that will be exploited by good regs.

3. You didn't answer the most important question I asked. Why CALL the turn bet if you're just going to fold to a river bet? This, too, is an obvious leak that any good reg will exploit.

-HooDooKoo
But does he really expect me to fold? Regs at these stakes very rarely make such big bluffs from my 200k hand experience.

But how am I exploited if I don't get married to over pairs? My post flop play after a 3 bet depends entirely on the player. The reason for tight 3 bet range is the amount of fish at the stakes I play. And when I am playing regs I do loosen my 3 bet range pre flop. In my database the players making the most money have a similar 3 bet range as mine. At 50NL a more aggressive style seems to pay off but I am not playing 50NL these days.

I called for 2 reasons. First I am beating TT/JJ and secondly its a lot more likely that he would try to steal the pot on the turn and shut down on the river if I call if he doesn't have a monster. And I have seen regs making unusually small bets with a set in 3 bet pots to gradually commit you to the hand.

It may very well be a bad fold I even admitted it in the OP. But from my experience regs simply don't burry themselves often enough to call here.

So you guys say I should keep betting and its just variance if he shows 99 in the end?

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H

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Good regs at any stake bluff against players they think they can get to fold enough to make said bluffs +EV --- and from this thread I'd guess that you're somewhat bluff vulnerable. Also, you should have a hard time determining how often the good players are bluffing because, if they're picking their spots correctly, they get a lot of folds so we never find out what they're holding.

The fact that you've seen set holders bet the turn small is irrelevant. I've seen a flopped set play the turn 15 different ways, so the fact that this particular turn bet was small doesn't tell you, well, anything. I absolutely bet the turn and I would consider folding to a turn shove even though some players will shove flush draws there, especially pairs and flush draws. But I think the information that you get if you're raised on the turn is much more reliable/informative than the information you get from a turn call.

As a result, I maintain that calling the turn and folding the river is a leak. Either fold the turn or call both streets with any non-spade river.

-HooDooKoo
 
Thinker_145

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Thanks a lot for your input man and everyone else too. :)

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suby_rafael

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No need to slow down on the turn, just keep firing.

As played raise the river for value or atleast one has to make a call. Folding is simply a huge mistake in this spot.

You ain't got a crystal ball so stop guessing if villain flopped a set or made two pair. This looks like playing scared poker to be honest.

If you are already scared of losing even before you play then you'll lose more often than not as you are low on confidence and supposedly "low on bankroll". :goodnight
 
F Paulsson

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Lots of draws on the flop. Bet three streets, OR c/c the river. I'm never, ever folding unless raised.

Did people become nits during my hiatus? Why do we rule out bluffs?
 
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