€20 NLHE 6-max: AA very deep stacked, how to get money in?

€20 NL HE 6-max: AA very deep stacked, how to get money in?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 31/23/3

Never been in this situation before, so I don't really know if I played this right. We were 261 bb deep!

600+ hands on him, loose pre obv but only 4% 3-bet, what's my move here...shove, 6-bet, flat, fold? (kidding about the fold )


Entraction - €0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (BTN): €55.92
INVALID POS: €20.00
SB: €52.52
UTG: €20.17
CO: €19.38

INVALID POS posts SB €0.10, SB posts BB €0.20

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.30) Hero has A:spade: A:diamond:

fold, fold, Hero raises to €0.70, fold, SB raises to €2.20, Hero raises to €5.50, SB raises to €16.20, Hero ????


EDIT : Sorry, put 2000NL instead of 20NL again...

I don't play much cash games but I can't find a better situation to get my money in than with this one. In tournament, you definitely push here. Cash, I don't know. It's at least a call. Personally, I would shove.

Shove. I doubt he's putting in 30% of his stack as a bluff and imo a less than a shove looks stronger than shoving.

t1riel said:

I don't play much cash games but I can't find a better situation to get my money in than with this one. In tournament, you definitely push here. Cash, I don't know. It's at least a call. Personally, I would shove.

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Sorry, I just find it funny how you say all-seriously AA is at least a call

WVHillbilly said:

Shove. I doubt he's putting in 30% of his stack as a bluff and imo a less than a shove looks stronger than shoving.

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Oh, I never thought for a second he was bluffing. I mean, he had a 4% 3-bet, he wouldn't 5-bet bluff like ever imo.

The thing is, we can safely put him on QQ+ and AK right? Assuming he doesn't have AA, are those hands he can get away from if we shove here? Even KK, may he get away from that?

He still has to call 2.25 times what he invested in the pot, and more importantly that represents almost 2 BI's, can the sheer amount be a fear factor to him?

I'm wondering if I flat, and he has KK probably, won't he shove any flop without an A? Or can he get away after the flop, him being the last aggressor?

In other words, if I shove here I scream AA period, or can I have anything else in his mind. If I flat, can't he think I have less-than-AA ?

Or if I min-raise his 5-bet, isn't it harder to fold then? Or are you saying it's easier...

I'm not sure, which is why I put this up obv.

You're over-thinking it imo. I think he calls a shove with QQ+/AK.
He'll fold his "bluffs" regardless of your bet size.

ComplexPlaya said:

In other words, if I shove here I scream AA period, or can I have anything else in his mind. If I flat, can't he think I have less-than-AA ?

Or if I min-raise his 5-bet, isn't it harder to fold then? Or are you saying it's easier...

I'm not sure, which is why I put this up obv.

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Have you ever folded KK preflop?

Shove. If he folds, you win almost a whole buy-in. If he calls you have an 80% chance to win 2.5

If you call, on the other hand, he knows exactly where he's at, and any board without an ace that does have a K or a Q will instill doubt in you, and make you bluffable.

You are best here, jam.

He'll come.

And even if he folds, you still get a buyin (almost)

Yeah just shove - he's rarely/never bluffing, and you want to get the money in before giving him a chance to fold postflop. If he's got QQ, you really don't want the flop to come Kxx or even something like 987sss to slow him down. If he's got AK, you want his money in PF when he thinks it's the nuts, not see a flop, miss, and give up.

And no, he almost never folds anything he's 5betting for value here. The main issue is action-killers on the flop.

ChuckTs said:

Yeah just shove - he's rarely/never bluffing, and you want to get the money in before giving him a chance to fold postflop. If he's got QQ, you really don't want the flop to come Kxx or even something like 987sss to slow him down. If he's got AK, you want his money in PF when he thinks it's the nuts, not see a flop, miss, and give up.

And no, he almost never folds anything he's 5betting for value here. The main issue is action-killers on the flop.

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Well I wasn't over thinking it while playing, all this came after the hand. I never thought he was bluffing either fwiw.

Is this a standard shove 260bb deep too then? The 'scare factor' of how much is left behind is not a real factor for most?

Obviously I shoved and he folded, so of course 1000 questions in my head afterwards....I'm putting him on KK or AK only, don't think he would 5-bet QQ there.

So if you think shoving is right here I'll do it next time that deep if the situation arises...

I guess once in a blue moon he might 5bet AK "just 'cause" and get scared of your shove, but most of the time he's calling just because he's committed so much of his stack already.

Just remember the number one problem of micro players is that they call too much, not that they fold too much. This definitely still holds when deep.

If villain has 3bet/4bet history with me, maybe something like an %8 overall 3bet, then I'd expect his value range to be about the same, but include lots more bluffs. If that's the case I want to call to rep QQ or whatever and induce from him postflop, but your read was different, hence a different approach.

ChuckTs said:

I guess once in a blue moon he might 5bet AK "just 'cause" and get scared of your shove, but most of the time he's calling just because he's committed so much of his stack already.

Just remember the number one problem of micro players is that they call too much, not that they fold too much. This definitely still holds when deep.

If villain has 3bet/4bet history with me, maybe something like an %8 overall 3bet, then I'd expect his value range to be about the same, but include lots more bluffs. If that's the case I want to call to rep QQ or whatever and induce from him postflop, but your read was different, hence a different approach.

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Alright I get your point. Does this hold true you think for 400BB stacks, 500BB? Is there a line to be drawn for shoving in these kind of situations?

I know it's rare, but it is kind of important I think because there is so much money there. And I've been 400-500 BB with someone @ 20NL plenty of times, just not with a great hand and this much action pre before.

Yeah everything still holds, but I imagine even at the micros, the sane players will be able to fold more hands, maybe including AK.

It all depends on the dynamics too, of course. Some people might 4bet/stack AK/QQ+ 200bb deep, then drop JJ from that range 400 deep but they might increase they're 5bet bluffing range.

I don't expect people to play that well though, generally having no idea what to do 400 deep with AK, and usually pay you off too light when you get the money in so I'd probably just keep shoveling money in with AA/most of the time w/KK almost regardless of how deep you are.

That dude seems CLEARLY commited to getting his money in himself with his monster 5-bet. at this point, super shove on top of him. I would be surprised if he didnt follow.

RAFC24 said:

That dude seems CLEARLY commited to getting his money in himself with his monster 5-bet. at this point, super shove on top of him. I would be surprised if he didnt follow.

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I did, he didn't, read above seems he was out of whack somewhere...

200+ bb deep it is rare to get it all in preflop. If he flatted you he'd still have room to play. Of course if you are going to shove do it know. How many people honestly have a 5 or 6 bet range?

Usually when I raise preflop, with any two cards (be it AA or 35o, which I do from time to time to keep my range wide and the strength of my hand concealed) - I'm happy to pick up 1.5 BBs, let alone what you picked up on this hand. Too bad you couldn't have exposed 43o on this hand, then got AA the next time...

I would def shove on top of him he will most likely make the call and if he foldsthat ok you still won 1.5 times the orig bet