$20 NLHE 6-max: 16NL : raise flop cbet in 3bet pot

Keith_MM

Keith_MM

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villain is 22/19 9.7%3bet and had seen him showdown A5s in a previous resteal from the blinds against another player who called his 3bet.

poker stars, $0.08/$0.16 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $22.43 (140.2 bb)
BB: $29.31 (183.2 bb)
Hero (UTG): $21.79 (136.2 bb)
MP: $9.09 (56.8 bb)
CO: $23.12 (144.5 bb)
BTN: $13.05 (81.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J
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J
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Hero raises to $0.48, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.48, SB raises to $2.08, BB folds, Hero calls $1.60, BTN folds

Flop: ($4.80) K
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T
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K
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(2 players)
SB bets $1.52, Hero raises to $4

His 3bet stats and hand i'd seen him showdown implied that there was a lot of his 3bet range that missed this flop so we could be folding the best hand a lot of the time, calling exposes us to the chance that Ace falls on the turn which would hit his preflop 3bet range quite hard. The paired Kings on the flop block his KK and AK combos which further favours us .By raising this flopwe're more likely to have hit the K on the flop but also have TT as a possible hand so could get QQ and AA to fold. If he's got AQ were charging him to draw to a straight that we block well and if he does hit it we've built the pot to stack him potentially as we've hit the nuts.
If he raises plan was to fold. thoughts?
 
Keith_MM

Keith_MM

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meant to add , his flop cbet looks really weak at less than 1/3 pot and looks like he's trying to take it down cheaply , however not sure whether my raise is too small as well but in play was based on his bet size rather than total pot size.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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I think if we do anything at all here, the play should be to just flat.

The reasons I think this is better is because we keep his air in. He might fold QQ (like maybe), but he isn't folding AA. I think what we accomplish by raising is making his trash fold, and he only continues with equity and hands that already beat us (in theory anyway, don't know if he calls too much though).


I would just flat, and see how the hand progresses. We have position, and there is no need to bloat the pot. An ace ripping on the turn is pretty unlikely, and we shouldn't be raising for protection (IMHO), cause it's just not that likely it will come.

I think if this guy 3b light, it could be argued that we may/may not want to 4b pre, to take the initiative back, but that's kinda optimistic. We only have JJ, and it doesn't flop very well.

So I like the way you played pre. I just call flop, see what happens on future streets.
 
K

KFlint

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I don't see much merit in raising here, the ace will not hit often at all and we can call down I think if he barrels. I wouldn't raise this flop with TT or a strong K, I don't raise anything in this spot.
 
S

Samuel Kollapso

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Would have just called and see which turn, reading the game would be better, we could base it on whether the bets, pre flop, flop, and turn would have a pattern, or if it only increased to fold. Depending on the turn would give a 3 bet, depending on the size 4bet, would drop the hand.
 
IPlay

IPlay

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Ehhh, IDK what we are doing here. We are turning our JJ into some weird bluff on the flop. Like gu3vara said, we shouldn't even have a raising range on this flop.

Are we really raising because we are worried about an A hitting the turn 8% of the time if he doesn't have one or 6% of the time if he does have one? We are also going to make him fold out his gut shots that we block and would give us a boat if he did hit it.

Basically, this raise is only getting us action when we are drawing to a 2 outer and lets him fold out everything we beat. This hand is a call 99.99999% of the time and there really isn't much room for creativity.

In regards to the comment about his cbet looking weak, this is a 3 bet pot that smashes his 3b squeezing range. This sizing is actually pretty standard and I would assume somewhat balanced.
 
Keith_MM

Keith_MM

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I think if we do anything at all here, the play should be to just flat.

The reasons I think this is better is because we keep his air in. He might fold QQ (like maybe), but he isn't folding AA. I think what we accomplish by raising is making his trash fold, and he only continues with equity and hands that already beat us (in theory anyway, don't know if he calls too much though).


I would just flat, and see how the hand progresses. We have position, and there is no need to bloat the pot. An ace ripping on the turn is pretty unlikely, and we shouldn't be raising for protection (IMHO), cause it's just not that likely it will come.
aren't we gonna hate any QKor A on turn though, could argue for any smaller cards boating him up as well but can't realistically see him 3betting an UTG open preflop with 22-99 when he's far more likely to just call and setmine.It would be different if i was on the btn when he's more likely to 3bet them vs a wide range that would fold often.

I think if this guy 3b light, it could be argued that we may/may not want to 4b pre, to take the initiative back, but that's kinda optimistic. We only have JJ, and it doesn't flop very well.
In theory his 3bet range vs utg open should be a lot tighter than his general 9.7% 3bet% so by 4betting likely to just isolate ourselves against a continuing range that has us crushed.
 
IPlay

IPlay

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In theory his 3bet range vs utg open should be a lot tighter than his general 9.7% 3bet% so by 4betting likely to just isolate ourselves against a continuing range that has us crushed.

This same concept applies on the flop. Also villain is squeezing from the widest 3b spot on the table so while you are UTG it is a squeeze so he will be a little looser. I still wouldn't give him the full 9.7% though. FWIW if we were 100bbs deep I'd 4b GII with JJ in this spot but 140bbs deep I think calling and taking a flop is kind of meh, but probably the best play.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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aren't we gonna hate any QKor A on turn though, could argue for any smaller cards boating him up as well but can't realistically see him 3betting an UTG open preflop with 22-99 when he's far more likely to just call and setmine.It would be different if i was on the btn when he's more likely to 3bet them vs a wide range that would fold often.


In theory his 3bet range vs utg open should be a lot tighter than his general 9.7% 3bet% so by 4betting likely to just isolate ourselves against a continuing range that has us crushed.


Yeah we aren't going to like bad turn cards. But there are many more neutral turn cards in there for us. Worrying about him hitting 2 outs on the turn and boating with say 5-5 or something, yeah MUBS.

I think best play is to flat. If he is going to bomb turn, bomb river, yeah at some point we let it go.


If, however, he checks turn, we check back (probably what I would do, to keep trash in and give him a chance to stab river), and he bets blank river, we call, he rolls Q-J or whatever he has we win sometimes, we lose sometimes.


If we raise flop, and he clicks it back, then we sigh fold, surrender all equity. I just feel like our hand is only a bluff catcher. If we raise, we are sort of turning JJ into a bluff on the flop, and what better hand is gonna fold? Maybe one, QQ, and I doubt some dude finds a fold there. So, all we accomplish is folding out trash that could donate to us if we flat, and take a more passive route.

Any Kx never ever folding.

Sometimes he calls raise with 10x (even though I think most competent players would probably release 10x here, and they might not cbet 10x) and Q-J (which we are clearly blocking)calls with AA and QQ I assume.

So, the question is, what do we accomplish by raising JJ here? Are we bluffing, or value betting? If we are raising for value/protection, what does he call with that we beat? Like how sticky is this guy really?

It seems to me, raising is more for protection according to what you said. And raise is kimd of small as well. I don't like raising here.


And I wouldn't 4b him either, we have position on him. Let's see a flop. Hardly ever 4b here, but there are some villains I have 4b for value much much worse than JJ.
 
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