$20/40 FL Stud8 6-max: Peel here?

Two things: first, I didn't play this hand, I saw it and wanted some other opinions about it. Second, it was actually $20/$40.

3rd street

5 players dealt in
Hero dealt 2♠3♠/8♠
Villain brings in w/ 4♦ for $6 (pot $26)
K♣ folds
7♠ folds
Hero completes to $20
A♣ folds
Villain raises to $40
Hero calls $20

4th street (pot: $

Hero dealt 9♦ (2♠3♠/8♠9♦)
Villain dealt 7♥ (4♦7♥)

Villain bets $20
Hero ???

I primarily want feedback on the rationale for peeling or not peeling, but I'm also curious about whether we should have 3bet on 3rd street.

Pretty standard peel with there being 2.5 big bets in the pot, but hero should've capped 3rd if 20/40 plays anything like the 10/20 or 15/30 games I've played in. You have enough cards you can catch on 5th that really boost your equity that allow you to stick around.

3rd street is really bad though IMO. Raising into the ace, and then not unloading when you're re-raised is pretty lame.

My understanding is that it's correct to peel in a raised pot after bricking on 4th (as c9 said), fold in an unraised pot. Then see what happens on 5th.

roundcat said:

My understanding is that it's correct to peel in a raised pot after bricking on 4th

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It really depends, but usually this statement is wrong. In a single raised pot with only 1 big bet in the pot, its usually *incorrect* to peel off a card. One of the number one leaks players have in stud 8 is they peel off a card too often on 4th. The first sentence in High-Low Split Poker for Advanced Players 4th Street section says this:

In general, the biggest mistake you can make in stud eight-or-better is to call frequently on 4th street when you catch a bad card.

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Of course, it always depends what you're up against. Be more inclined to peel off a card if you're up against a weak high hand (say, XX_J4 and you have 34_6K) or if you're up against an 8.

And it depends on the structure a lot. I know at full tilt with a *lot* more dead money in the pot, you should be calling 4th a lot more, and it was something I never adjusted properly to when I played there. But you still shouldn't be calling that much more often.

The key to this post is that if you peeled every 4th street in a raised pot you'd be making a huge error. But since this pot was re-raised, and we have a three flush, I'm okay with taking one more.

Thank you, c9! Very good to know. Is it razz where it's usually correct to peel on 4th?

roundcat said:

Thank you, c9! Very good to know. Is it razz where it's usually correct to peel on 4th?

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Stud hi. Razz is another game where your biggest source of money comes from the fact that when you catch bad, and your opponent catches good, you should fold. However, in stud hi, you should be peeling lots of 4th streets if the pot is heads up. This comes from the fact that you're drawing to win the whole pot, and your pot odds are much better.

This is from a Tom "LearnedfromTV" Chambers video on CardPlayerPro (which I mentioned in the tournament LO8 hand I recently posted). So, this is what happened.

Hero folded.

His argument was that when Villain reraises as the bring-in on 3rd it generally means a 3-card low. When Vil. catches the [7h], Tom says he will rarely catch a card on 5th that will help unless he catches a low spade and Vil. bricks. He also says that he's behind in the high if Vil. has an A in the hole or if he paired his 7. An example he gives is that if Vil. bricks and he catches a 6, Vil. still has a better low draw and we have no high draw, so he concludes that folding is the better play.

I'm not sure how I feel. Originally I thought peeling the better move here, but the more I think about it, the more I feel I might want to fold. Any more thoughts?

c9h13no3 said:

Stud hi. Razz is another game where your biggest source of money comes from the fact that when you catch bad, and your opponent catches good, you should fold. However, in stud hi, you should be peeling lots of 4th streets if the pot is heads up. This comes from the fact that you're drawing to win the whole pot, and your pot odds are much better.

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Wow, I suck way more than I thought.

I don't know FL S8, but the razz comment caught me.

c9h13no3 said:

Razz is another game where your biggest source of money comes from the fact that when you catch bad, and your opponent catches good, you should fold.

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Well this would depend on the 3rd street action though. Assuming we actually had a playable hand on 3rd and weren't doing something goofy:

If 3rd wasn't completed and we brick while villian hits a small card giving him a 9-low draw or better looking board, then 4th street would generally be a fold. But if the pot was raised on 3rd and you're heads-up, then peeling off one is fairly standard (at worst it's only a small mistake as I understand it if you do it a little too often)...though if it isn't HU and both hit good to your brick then it's an autofold.

Jack Daniels said:

But if the pot was raised on 3rd and you're heads-up, then peeling off one is fairly standard

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See, this is why I either limp in, or jam the pot on 3rd. It makes my decisions easier

I'm kinda surprised its that close, usually being a ~1.7:1 dog on 4th, and having to catch well while our opponent catches poorly. But Razz isn't my best game by far, so if you say peeling is standard, I'll go along with it.

EDIT - This got more curious, and the more I'm reading on 2+2, the more I still think you're advocating peeling too thin Jack. Even in threads like this where OP has some dead money from another caller with a brick, they're advocating fold.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/20/stud/razz-1-2-catching-bad-4th-371137/

Maybe you meant raised pot instead of completed pot? Often authors mean a raised pot as being a completion, and then a raise. Anyways, in most limit games you want to find reasons to fold early, and in the short profitable history of me playing Razz (given less than 10K hands) I've been pretty successful folding 4th in a completed pot when I brick out. And the more stuff I read... the more it seems folding is the standard play.

http://listeningsrazzblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/razz-calling-4th-street-brick.html

Can poker tracker stud run a filter on this sort of situation where you catch a brick and continue, because I'm curious what it would find for a large hand sample.

This thread has become a bit sidetracked (sorry Sohmurr), but about peeling on 4th street in razz, Sklansky talks about this in the razz section of Sklansky on Poker. He says:

"...where he catches a good one and you catch a bad one, while cut and dry, is one of the most important situations in razz. Is it your major money maker because unless there has been a double raise on third street, or your hand is extremely good in that it is low and very live, you should fold when he bets. Those players who automatically come again on fourth street when they have started with a good three-card hand are costing themselves a lot of money. When in doubt in this situation throw your hand away. It can never be more than a minor mistake in the most severe situations. All you can do by calling is get yourself in deeper hot water most of the time."

He clarifies in a footnote that when the decision is close you should consider the skill of your opponent, and whether he'd make incorrect calls on future street if you catch good and he catches bad.

c9h13no3 said:

But Razz isn't my best game by far, so if you say peeling is standard, I'll go along with it.

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Well I'm not exactly a Razz pro and I definitely don't play in the $10/$20 range, so it's always a good idea to validate my comments.

c9h13no3 said:

EDIT - This got more curious, and the more I'm reading on 2+2, the more I still think you're advocating peeling too thin Jack.

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I don't think that I am. Based on some of your other comments though I think I wasn't very clear in my response; had too many ifs going on I think.

c9h13no3 said:

Even in threads like this where OP has some dead money from another caller with a brick, they're advocating fold.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/20/stud/razz-1-2-catching-bad-4th-371137/

Maybe you meant raised pot instead of completed pot? Often authors mean a raised pot as being a completion, and then a raise.

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Yes, I did mean a raised pot as in someone completed then someone raised. You're right too; many people think that a completion is a raise and it isn't (they think this because of the BI, but the BI is not a "bet" per se".

And I don't think I'm really advocating anything much different than pretty much what the links were driving at.

c9h13no3 said:

I've been pretty successful folding 4th in a completed pot when I brick out. And the more stuff I read... the more it seems folding is the standard play.

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While I'd probably debate folding being the "standard" play when you have a very live, playable hand, this is probably the biggest mis-write I made. My parenthetical makes it sound like calling all the time. I wrote:

Jack Daniels said:

(at worst it's only a small mistake as I understand it if you do it a little too often)

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but really what it was really meant to say was

Jack Daniels said:

(but even if you fold every time at worst it's only a small mistake as I understand it if you do it a little too often)

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This was meant to be in line with Sklansky as RC quoted.

And I did preface this with the assumption that we had a playable hand on 3rd and weren't doing something goofy. A hidden brick or pair does not a playable hand make. A live three card bike or even a live three card smooth 7 or 8 can easily fit into scenarios where calling is more profitable on a 4th str brick. As you very well know from playing stud; there is a lot more situational dependence than in HE. AA is always the best starting hand at the table in HE whereas in Razz 32A is not guaranteed to be the best possible hand on 3rd str.

c9h13no3 said:

Can poker tracker stud run a filter on this sort of situation where you catch a brick and continue

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Not that I can see. PTStud's filtering is pretty limited though.