$2 NLHE Full Ring: Weird spot with middle pair

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 42.5 BB
UTG: 74.5 BB (VPIP: 27.10, PFR: 15.09, 3Bet Preflop: 2.70, hands: 107)
UTG+1: 108.5 BB (VPIP: 13.98, PFR: 6.45, 3Bet Preflop: 5.41, Hands: 94)
MP: 59.5 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 3.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
MP+1: 74 BB (VPIP: 25.81, PFR: 12.90, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
CO: 126.5 BB (VPIP: 23.08, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 26)
BTN: 38.5 BB (VPIP: 23.81, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
SB: 57.5 BB (VPIP: 20.83, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 0.5 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 3 BB) Hero has J:diamond: 5:club:

fold, UTG+1 raises to 2 BB, MP calls 2 BB, MP+1 calls 2 BB, fold, BTN calls 2 BB, SB calls 1.5 BB, Hero calls 1 BB

Flop: (13.5 BB, 6 players) A:club: 9:club: J:spade:
SB checks, Hero bets 3 BB, UTG+1 raises to 6 BB, MP calls 6 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 3 BB

Turn: (31.5 BB, 3 players) 6:club:
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 1 BB, MP calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 4 BB, UTG+1 calls 3 BB, fold

River: (40.5 BB, 2 players) 3:spade:
Hero bets 12.5 BB


What I was thinking:

Preflop: called the min raise to defend my blind.

Flop: Paired my jack, so made a small bet as a way to get information. i think if somebody calls they probably have something. I'm not sure why I called his raise.... im really not. UTG+1 was representing a pair of aces at least, which certainly had me beat.

Turn: Checked the turn because UTG+1 showed aggression and I thought he probably had a good hand. (I think I was planning to fold if he raised again) UTG+1 makes the weak bet, and I get the sense that he is nervous, so I raise to 4x his bet size.

River: I figured there was good chances that the 3 didnt help him in any way, so sensing weakness on the turn, I double-barreled.


There are things I definitely feel that I did wrong here, and things that I also feel I did right. This hand left me feeling weird for winning it haha.


Thoughts???


Also, I know somebody is going to comment on my short stack, Its a short stack table, max buy in is 50BB so although its technically a short stack, im not too far behind. (I dont want to use auto-top off just yet because I feel like it would be too easy to lose more than you realize)
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

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You're getting 11:1, so preflop isn't wrong, but it's going to be about EV neutral with a hand that has a lot of reverse implied odds. Folding would be perfectly acceptable.

As played, DO NOT DONK THE FLOP!
You do not have the best hand with an A on the board and no kicker for your second pair. It's 6-handed postflop!!! You're drawing and you have pretty much zero fold equity.

You actually had pot odds to draw to a 5-outer when he min-raised the flop and got a caller. You're paying 3bb with 28.5bb in the pot! The donk is bad, but calling the raise isn't!

Turn: if you want to do this, then check-raising for 4x the made bet is not going to work here.
He min-bet 1bb.
Your 4bb check-raise means they both have to pay a mere 3bb in a 37.5bb pot. They're getting 12.5:1!!! They can call with a 3-outer! A single K:club: is NEVER folding. a single Q:club: isn't even folding!!! And a non-club Ax isn't even folding because he doesn't have to be right a whole lot for the call to be correct.
IF you want to do this, you need to check-raise not 4bb but a near-pot-sized bet. Shoving would be better.

River is the same. Your line is so weird that you'll get a WTF-call by an A a lot of the time. If you want any fold equity, you need to shove.
If I were UTG, I would call the river with Ax, JUST to get a read. But I wouldn't min-bet the turn, so meh.


The best line, imo, is either fold preflop, or call preflop, check/fold flop.

There are WAY better spots to try fancy lines, and there are way better fancy lines than this.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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You're getting 11:1, so preflop isn't wrong, but it's going to be about EV neutral with a hand that has a lot of reverse implied odds. Folding would be perfectly acceptable.

As played, DO NOT DONK THE FLOP!
You do not have the best hand with an A on the board and no kicker for your second pair. It's 6-handed postflop!!! You're drawing and you have pretty much zero fold equity.

You actually had pot odds to draw to a 5-outer when he min-raised the flop and got a caller. You're paying 3bb with 28.5bb in the pot! The donk is bad, but calling the raise isn't!

Turn: if you want to do this, then check-raising for 4x the made bet is not going to work here.
He min-bet 1bb.
Your 4bb check-raise means they both have to pay a mere 3bb in a 37.5bb pot. They're getting 12.5:1!!! They can call with a 3-outer! A single K<font color='black'>♣</font> is NEVER folding. a single Q<font color='black'>♣</font> isn't even folding!!! And a non-club Ax isn't even folding because he doesn't have to be right a whole lot for the call to be correct.
IF you want to do this, you need to check-raise not 4bb but a near-pot-sized bet. Shoving would be better.

River is the same. Your line is so weird that you'll get a WTF-call by an A a lot of the time. If you want any fold equity, you need to shove.
If I were UTG, I would call the river with Ax, JUST to get a read. But I wouldn't min-bet the turn, so meh.


The best line, imo, is either fold preflop, or call preflop, check/fold flop.

There are WAY better spots to try fancy lines, and there are way better fancy lines than this.

Part of me thinks if he had an ace he would have played back at me harder on the flop. But I do see what you mean about giving him good odds to continue on the turn. I don't like shoving here just because I'm not terribly confident in my hand either. I think next time this situation comes up ill check raise to pot size and shove the river. I'm not great at being aggressive from early position.

Villain here played very strangely. I think his stats look pretty nitty, and his fold to Cbet was around 70%, but it of course its a small sample size.

Definitely one of the more awkward hands of the night
 
TimovieMan

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I don't like shoving here just because I'm not terribly confident in my hand either. I think next time this situation comes up ill check raise to pot size and shove the river.
Well, I was going to suggest check/raising to pot size, but that would leave you with only 4bb behind, so shoving accomplishes the same.

Villain here played very strangely. I think his stats look pretty nitty, and his fold to Cbet was around 70%, but it of course its a small sample size.
His fold to c-bet% is irrelevant, as the only one that can c-bet here was he himself. You made a donk-bet into him. ;)
He min-raised to an amount that was less than half-pot, but was closer to what he would've c-bet, most likely. If he would have c-bet.
In any case, both the donk and the minraise were far too small to accomplish anything.

These small bets and raises are meaningless if people still have the correct pot odds to make the call. The idea is to bet/raise big enough for them to be making a mistake if they call...
 
mbrenneman0

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I'm thinking his fold to Cbet stat combined with his vpip and pfr means he's a passive player who is going to fold against aggression anytime he's not holding the best hand?? Your right though, I definitely need to work on bet sizing. I wasn't thinking about where a pot size bet would leave me on the turn so you're right, a shove is almost the same thing.

Maybe I'm just trying to justify my bad play since I'm biased knowing the outcome
 
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fletchdad

fletchdad

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I am going to comment without looking to see the other comments.

This is not defending your BB. You are passively calling in a MW pot with a trash hand. I see no defending going on at all. With a hand like this you have massive reverse implied odds and if you hit any had at all you are still OOP vs all but SB...


FLOP:
Donking for information here is a bad play. What information do you want? Either someone will raise you or you get calls. Calls give you no information at all. A raise says someone finds the jack a nice card to raise with.

Voila!!! You got your information, and you called..... I don't see why (and you didnt either) You are more often than not a dog here.

TURN:

Checking here good. He didnt like the club (and it doesent help you much, more reverse implied odds unless you want to bluff the river, but meh on that idea really....) or he WANTED you to raise this board. His bet makes no sense at all. But your raise of "4 times his bet size" also makes no sense. Either bet enough that he lets you know what he has or fold. He is calling your VERY weak raise with most all of his hands that are not complete bluffs.

Again, his 1bb bet OTT is possibly not weakness. It simply makes no sense. It can be a silly attempt to induce.


RIVER:
I have a question: Why are you raising OTR? Is it a bluff or a value bet? Why the bet sizing? If he raises what are you going to do?

Bet sizing throughout the entire hand is very questionable at best. Why did you size as you did?

TOP UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Playing short is never a good idea. "Not too far behind" you said. Play with a full stack (I know here it is 50bb, so HAVE 50 bb!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
 
mbrenneman0

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The bet on the river is a semi-bluff. I want him to fold here because I don't have much confidence in my pair in a showdown. Bet size about pot-sized, I think it shows enough strength without risking my whole stack. If he raises I fold.

Fletchdad, some people would think your being harsh, but that harshness is exactly the kind of thing that's going to help me learn. Thank you for the analysis, I will certainly take it to heart
 
Beanfacekilla

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I will just put it out there, and be blunt.


I hate everything about this hand.

Preflop:
We need to find a fold here. I don't care about pot-odds, defending blind, whatever. Calling preflop to go multi-way is just pure spew. What are we going to flop?


As played, postflop:
We have 2nd pair (no kicker), on a board that is going to connect with others. We have FD, gutters, Ax hands, and who knows what else continuing here. We have no FE, so we are just lighting money on fire here. Hate the donk bet. C/F the flop here. However, when we get raised, we are calling? Dude, no. Just fold to the raise. Fold. :)


As played OTT:
Your raise size is just too small to fold out any vulnerable hand we beat, and this is micro stakes. No one is making big folds here.

River:
I would be shocked if the opponent folds here, and he probably has a better hand than you. But who knows, he could show up with some goofy stuff here.

In the long run, this entire hand is spew, from start to finish. The biggest mistake is trying to flat call OOP with a piece of junk hand, and go MW to the flop. You'd be better off just putting in a big 3b preflop, and trying to pick up dead money right there. And we could fire all-in OTF if HU, and possibly get folds. This is still spewy and incredibly loose, but it is a way better line than the one you took.



Fold preflop. This isn't even close. There is no universe that I call in this spot.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I thought of a better way to sum up.

We don't need to have FPS (fancy play syndrome). We don't need to play a multi-way pot OOP with rags at these stakes, living on an island in no-man's land. All we need to do is play ABC poker, and value bet opponents relentlessly to beat these micro games.
 
mbrenneman0

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River:
I would be shocked if the opponent folds here, and he probably has a better hand than you. But who knows, he could show up with some goofy stuff here.
He folded. I was shocked...

Your right though. I definitely need to tighten up. I noticed a play any hand with a face card too often and my vpip is about double what it should be. I'm going to play an hour session this afternoon and definitely going to try to tighten up. I think I get excited when i get a good hand and then for the next couple of hands after that I feel like I need to keep momentum or something and go full lagtard until I bet off half my stack. Looking at my graph on poker tracker, ever major spike up is followed immediately with a drop off down.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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The bet on the river is a semi-bluff. I want him to fold here because I don't have much confidence in my pair in a showdown. Bet size about pot-sized, I think it shows enough strength without risking my whole stack. If he raises I fold.

Fletchdad, some people would think your being harsh, but that harshness is exactly the kind of thing that's going to help me learn. Thank you for the analysis, I will certainly take it to heart


I am not trying to be harsh, not at all. I am being a bit blunt, but not to insult you.

I think you must be fairly new to poker..

You are thinking about a hand and that is good. BUT, you have some things, concepts etc, mixed up.

The bet OTR is NOT a semi bluff. A semi-bluff means you can still draw but are not there yet, so you like folds but calls are not terrible. Semi bluffs cannot be done OTR where no cards can still come.

You did not do a pot sized bet OTR, you bet 12.5 BB into 40.5 BB.

Your bet sizing, as I mentioned (and I see others as well) is way off. But your attitude is fine. You want to learn, and many times answers will be blunt or harsh. Just let that roll off your back, and keep on posting hands.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I am not trying to be harsh, not at all. I am being a bit blunt, but not to insult you.

I think you must be fairly new to poker..

You are thinking about a hand and that is good. BUT, you have some things, concepts etc, mixed up.
Yeah, I played poker casually with friends for most of my life, and only started to look at strategy about a month before black Friday. Then black Friday came and I put it down until about a month ago and now I've decided to pick it back up more seriously. I think the difference between this time and last time is that I'm realizing just how much there is to know about poker and how much of it I still haven't learned yet.

The bet OTR is NOT a semi bluff. A semi-bluff means you can still draw but are not there yet, so you like folds but calls are not terrible. Semi bluffs cannot be done OTR where no cards can still come.
I always thought semi bluff was any bluff where you held more than just air.

You did not do a pot sized bet OTR, you bet 12.5 BB into 40.5 BB.

Your bet sizing, as I mentioned (and I see others as well) is way off. But your attitude is fine. You want to learn, and many times answers will be blunt or harsh. Just let that roll off your back, and keep on posting hands.
Wow, I don't know what I was looking at when I called that pot sized haha... >.< my bad.
 
TimovieMan

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The bet on the river is a semi-bluff. I want him to fold here because I don't have much confidence in my pair in a showdown. Bet size about pot-sized, I think it shows enough strength without risking my whole stack. If he raises I fold.
Semi-bluff - see below.

Bet size is about 30% pot-sized. The pot at the river is 40.5bb and you're betting 12bb. A pot-sized bet is 40bb.

I always thought semi bluff was any bluff where you held more than just air.
No, a semi-bluff is indeed a bluff with a hand that has several outs to improve, like an open-ended straight draw, or the nut flush draw. Right now you still have A-high, or even J-high, for instance, but if you get called, you have 8 or 9 outs to improve.
That's a semi-bluff.

On the river, a semi-bluff is not possible because no cards can come to help our hand.

What you're talking about is "turning a weak made hand into a bluff", which is a play you can use sometimes, when you know your opponent has a stronger made hand, but not so strong that he's never going to lay it down if you represent something even stronger.
If you have second pair no kicker (like here), but the flush draw comes in and you shove, representing it, then you're looking to fold a stronger hand like top pair or even a two-pair or set or straight.

As an aside, be very cautious with plays like this. You want to do them vs people that actually know how to fold. TAG regs are good. LAGtards and fish are bad, since those guys aren't folding.
Also, bluffing is a less potent weapon at the micro-stakes. People call you down lighter, because well, they don't know any better. Which is why betting for value is so important, including betting for thin value on the river instead of inducing (since most weaker hands would call your smallish bet, but won't bet themselves).


Edit: and again I'm the only one that doesn't think preflop is so horrible getting those odds. But I'm a former limit player, and that may be "limit thinking". Getting 11:1 in the BB, I could profitably play any two cards in limit. But you need to be consistent: miss the flop, dump the hand. 6-way, second pair no kicker is NEVER going to be the best hand. The only reason you actually have the odds to draw to 5 outs is because of your donk and the min-raise. Without that, if villain had bet 3bb and gotten one caller, you would be calling 3bb getting 6.5:1. Because your donk and the minraise, you're now calling 3bb getting 9.5:1.
 
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