$2 NLHE Full Ring: Weak(?) flush draw in a 3-Bet pot

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TheCourtesyFlush

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 26/16/2

WPN, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $2.35 (117.5 bb)
BB: $2.27 (113.5 bb)
UTG+2: $1.28 (64 bb)
MP1: $2.54 (127 bb)
MP2: $2.28 (114 bb)
MP3: $0.84 (42 bb)
CO: $1.46 (73 bb)
Hero (BTN): $2.08 (104 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with T♣ J♣
5 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, SB folds, BB raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.41) 6♣ Q♣ Q♦ (2 players)
BB bets $0.18, Hero calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.77) K♦ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.77) 3♥ (2 players)
BB bets $0.37, Hero folds

Other relevate stats: hands (330), 3-Bet (7), C-Bet (73)

****Spoilers Below****

Okay, now for the questions. I'm pretty certain the 3-bet call was bad against the 7% range and confirmed it with Flopzilla.

The flop was where I'm thinking I screwed up. For the level I'm playing at, my opponent is a pretty good reg and is one of the few with a positive win rate that I've seen, although the sample is small. Plus, I shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place, so I think I should have folded to the flop c-bet.

However, I am in position with a backdoor straight draw for an extra out (I think), and I do have the equity to call the pot odds per Flopzilla.

So, was this a good call, or a bad one and which factors tip it either way, say if he just called preflop and I wasn't in the flop incorrectly?

Thanks for any thoughts or advice.
 
TenJack

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Before i analyze more, Here is my read: either slowplayed 66 or QQ, or Axc. If he understands odds at all, he would know that he would need to bet bigger with AQ or KQ, or he is trying to give himself odds to draw to a big flush. I would sometimes add AKc in, but i feel like he bets that turn.
Preflop, i honestly don't mind just limping from the bttn. As played, calling a raise is maybe a bit loose but i would do the same. TJs flops a lot of drawing hands, and is something i look to play from late pos. a lot. (It is my username, after all.)

On the flop, a call is fine. You are getting good odds for the flush, as well as having a backdoor nut str8 draw. You also block his ATs and AJs flush combos that you would be drawing very thin against.

When he checks the turn, I like a bet. You pick up an oesd, still have the flush draw, and your opponent could very well be drawing himself.

On the river, i can fold, sometimes he has a bluff but we cant even win against those unless we bluff jam ourselves, which is a big risk to win a dollar pot.
 
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Be very wary of flush and straight draws on paired boards. You could already be drawing dead.
 
John A

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Calling pre is fine. 7% looks like you lumped it w/ his overall stats, and if that's the case, his range is not going to be 7% in this situation.

I don't hate a turn check when the K rolls off, but at these stakes you can probably bet that turn.
 
Misaki

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TenJack said:
Preflop, i honestly don't mind just limping from the bttn.
Click to expand...

open limp from BU with TJs? man. You need to learn a lot. It's worst option you could choose.

Anyway about the hand. In my opinion you should never look exactly at stats of 3bets after 330 hands. Its only 330 hands. He could even have 3% or 12% in a long run. 330 hands is just a small number. Generally theory rules say that if you open some particular combinations of hands then you should defend around 50% of it. For example if you open from MP 16% then vs 3bet you should defend 7-8% (what includes 4bets for value, 4bets for bluff and call vs 3bet). On the BU - JTs its simply a call. If we open there around 40-50% then JTs is in your defend range. Ofc it's nl2 so you don't need to be so balanced and without info you could fold it preflop, because you don't know how he play postflop, but still I think it's a call. Even if it's 330 hand then you can see he is not a nit, you have position and JTs is a great a hand to call vs 3bet on BU.

As played it's always a call flop. Of course board hits him very well, but he gives you a good price, you have a flush draw+ backdoor straight draw and you just can't fold it.

K on turn is interesting. He decided to check what's pretty strange if he decided to cbet the flop. On nl2 there is a problem with saying what people represents there. It's hard to say what kind combinations of hands they have because they cbet almost everything on every board, they are pretty unbalanced, make many mistakes and they like to play tricky. If he decided to cbet for a bluff on QQx then K is a great card to 2nd barrel. But of course he didn't do it. It means he could have something like JJ, TT, 99 but you block first two hands very much, he could have KQ so you are pretty dead now, he could have aces, kings, or even AK (even if it should be check on flop). Anyway he crushes you so check on turn is pretty decent. You realize your equity on paired board and it's no sense to bet it. Of course you can throw some hands, which he decided to cbet on the flop, but with that kind of hands he should 2nd barrel. On QQx I wouldn't except any fold because you have many Qx, many pocket pairs, many strongs Ax in your range and that hands people mostly defend on BU vs 3bet.

River - you don't hit, he decided to bet and fold is ok.

In my opinion you played this hand pretty well.
 
GreenDaddy1

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Still in the learner category myself, but here is my take on that hand (I find working through these hands is really helpful to understand my own game! :) ).

Currently I'd call that 3bet as standard with it folded to me on the button. I'm only 4betting QQ+, AK, AQs in that spot. I'm calling a 3bet from the blinds with a few more hands than I will other positions, with JTs towards the bottom of that range.

I'd call on that flop all day long, would have even called a slightly larger bet. I watched this video yesterday in regards to playing draws, might be useful for you: https://www.parttimepoker.com/poker-training-video-poker201-part-6-play-draws-post-flop

In position on the turn I would have bet after villain checked to you (if I was out of position there I'd be checking though). In villain's spot I'm pre flop 3betting vs button something like 99+ & AJo/AJs+. 26/16 looks looser than me, so perhaps there are some weaker pairs and Ax/Kx hands in there. I think when he doesn't bet the turn it shows weakness and you can rule out a lot of the stronger hands, he should be playing for value if he has something big. Therefore I bet 50/60% and get some fold equity, some info if he calls it that might help if he gets agro on the river (just in case he was slowplaying something). You have 15 good outs if you get called, so it is not the end of the world. If he was to check raise I suppose I do put him on something big, but with 15 outs you might still be priced to call the raise, depending on the bet size.

As played, the river is an obvious fold for me. Having missed the draws entirely you are left with a hand that is beaten most of the time against a range that surely has a lot of A & K in it. I don't imagine there is much profit in putting villain on pure air.
 
Hujiko

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Preflop one can't put a 7% 3 Bet player on the same 3 Bets percentage when he 3 Bets a BTN raise from the BB he should be much wider on the BB versus the BTN then verus e.g. the UTG player.

On the flop I would consider raising on his C Bet with the flush draw as this surely has fold equity against hands that beat you. Would not do that every time but a considerable amount of the time. Also it he just calls and you hit your flush your flush is well disguised!

On the Turn I would consider betting for similar reasons as raising the flop.

On the river it is an obvious fold.
 
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TenJack

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Misaki said:
open limp from BU with TJs? man. You need to learn a lot. It's worst option you could choose.

Open limping from late pos is something i do sometimes with hands like this. Everybody thinks "Oh, absolute never limp in because it is such a weak play." Not always true.

Am i defending open-limping? No. It's dumb. But why play a 3-bet pot with a marginal hand when you can see a flop for much cheaper by limp-calling? Or you can take the limp-raise line, which is super strong and a great bluff.
Click to expand...
 
Misaki

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TenJack said:
Misaki said:
open limp from BU with TJs? man. You need to learn a lot. It's worst option you could choose.

Open limping from late pos is something i do sometimes with hands like this. Everybody thinks "Oh, absolute never limp in because it is such a weak play." Not always true.

Am i defending open-limping? No. It's dumb. But why play a 3-bet pot with a marginal hand when you can see a flop for much cheaper by limp-calling? Or you can take the limp-raise line, which is super strong and a great bluff.
Click to expand...

JTs is a marginal hand? that hand hits better than AKo. It's one of the better hands you can actually have playing in position. You are on a BU, you already can steal pots, you play it IP when get called and still it's a decent hand to play it in 3bets pots IP on wide ranges. That hand will earn you more money in long run by playing it in a normal way than limp/fold it, limp/call or limp/raise. Sorry but your way of play is easy to exploit. That's how regs earn money. They exploit that kinds of players like you because you are so passive preflop. You just to often lose initiative and you don't understand how to play poker to earn more money. Open limping is just bad. Do you see any good regs, pros who open limp on EP-BU? answer is no. No one does it. Only on SB it's acceptable with some kind of weak hands which are balanced with top range like aces.

You say you don't want to play 3bet pots but you are happy to build a pot by playing check/raise? if even it looks strong then it looks only strong once, maybe twice. Next time every good player will notice it and you will lose more money than you think.

By limping you can't earn money preflop. That's one of the biggest mistake beginers make. They don't understand that main goal of poker is stealing the blinds.
Click to expand...
 
TenJack

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equity of TJs vs. AKo is 41-59 in favor of AK, js. It is a suited connector. Sure, it flops nut str8s, but it flops top pair/ top 2 much less often than, say, QKs. You are easily dominated by AJ, AT hands that flop you drawing to 4 outs even when you pair up.

I am just making the point that by occasionally throwing in a limp from LP you can balance out a bit instead of stealing EVERY DARN time. stealing every time is exploitable, and exploitable = stupid imo. Notice i say occasionally, I rarely limp and when i do it is to either build an image or have something different available.

As for your misguided comments about limp-raising, it is a strong play that, yes, only works once, maybe twice. But it is another play to have in your arsenal, and a great one for repping AA,KK. I don't mind building a pot where i know that, barring a wierd flop, i can rep strong and take down every time ip.

There is a difference between being passive and throwing in something different. There is also a difference between being a beginner and being a 6-days a week live player like myself. I thank you for your point of view. :D
 
Misaki

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I wasn't talking about equity JTs vs AKo but about hitting the board. You don't need to hit every time two pairs etc. You can easily win a pot preflop or by cbet, 2nd barrel etc. That hand give you many possibilities. Good to know that you mentioned about live games. I'm not an expert about live games but online JTs is just an open. Never open limp on BU.
 
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I liked everything you did. If villain (good you say) thinks you are not fish, he will bet his whole missed range on that flop because ‘normal’ players fold so much here and against made hands you have plenty of implied odds. Him checking turn is weak but doesn’t really rule out anything except very nutty hands, so bet or check should be about equal given you are not planning to over bet river, most players at 2NL will call turn with made hands, draws, but I guess they fold some Ax hands but there are not many that did not hit QK.

I’m not hater of limping in cash, however this is practically never the spot to do that in my opinion. There is no exploitable play against balanced stealing in position, if you just keep the range in control given relative skill cap between you and villain. If equal skill hero vs villain 40% steal should be easy and 35% dominating in my experience.
 
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TheCourtesyFlush

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Thank you all very much. I learn so much from these discussions, let alone the actual advice. I'm seeing how much further I have to go on my thought process, but I'm learning a lot faster than I would without these.

I don't feel qualified to weigh in on the debate, except to say at my experience level, I think I should stay away from limping too much until I've got time to better learn what factors affect when to do it. I do limp behind occasionally with a decent but not great hand and really good pot odds, from late position or the SB, but that's it. I've just got too many other things to learn first before I can get to that level of detail.

So much good information here though, so thanks again.
 
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Pre flop is definitely fine. J10CC will play well even vs a tight range. I personally would like you to start bluffing the turn when checked too. You obviously have a ton of equity but also think of how many times you will have Qx here. You raised btn and called a 3bet so we can say you have all the QK combos, possible all the AQ combos if he is a tight 3better and then QJs and Q10s. So you have around 20 combos of QX here, so then we want to incoperate around 10-20 combos of bluffs here as well and J10cc for me would be one them.
 
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