$2 NLHE Full Ring: UTG K-K Critique My Betting Please

I'm chalking this up to bad luck, but you folks tell me.

Villain VPIP 47 with PFR of 17 after ~ 50 hands

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

CO ($2.20)
Button ($6.54)
SB ($3.59)
BB ($1.84)
Hero (UTG) ($2.49)
UTG+1 ($1.44)
MP1 ($0.58)
MP2 ($2.06)
MP3 ($1.53)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , K
Hero raises to $0.07, 7 folds, BB raises to $0.12, Hero raises to $0.40, BB raises to $1.84 (All-In), Hero calls $1.44

Flop: ($3.69) 3 , 2 , A (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($3.69) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($3.69) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.69 | Rake: $0.13

Results below:
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/8016739_FE5B23A6AD

Same villain won this one, I was in this one at first but folded AK S when other 2 were betting heavy after the flop. A heavier bet pre by me may have gotten UTG off his suited connectors, but watching the other guy play for quite a while, I wouldn't have gotten him off his small PP and chips would have been wasted.

I think I'll start leaving the table when I see someone like this.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

MP2 ($2.13)
CO ($6.54)
Button ($3.55)
SB ($4.54)
Hero (BB) ($2.53)
UTG ($1.72)
UTG+1 ($0.77)
MP1 ($3.21)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K , A
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 raises to $0.06, 2 folds, CO calls $0.06, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.04, UTG calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.30) 9 , 2 , 6 (5 players)
SB bets $0.24, Hero folds, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.24, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.78) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $0.52, UTG+1 calls $0.47 (All-In)

River: ($1.72) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $1.72 | Rake: $0.06

Results below:

SeaRun said:

I'm chalking this up to bad luck, but you folks tell me.

Villain VPIP 47 with PFR of 17 after ~ 50 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

CO ($2.20)
Button ($6.54)
SB ($3.59)
BB ($1.84)
Hero (UTG) ($2.49)
UTG+1 ($1.44)
MP1 ($0.58)
MP2 ($2.06)
MP3 ($1.53)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, K

Hero raises to $0.07, 7 folds, BB raises to $0.12, Hero raises to $0.40, BB raises to $1.84 (All-In), Hero calls $1.44

Flop: ($3.69) 3

, 2

, A

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($3.69) 5

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($3.69) 8

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $3.69 | Rake: $0.13



http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/8016739_FE5B23A6AD

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Hi Man !

After seeing the replay of the game ...I can definitely say that that was just bad luck nothing else .

You have made standard raise preFlop > Villain Re-Raise> Your ReR again and he SHOVES >>>

>>> The only think I can advice...to shove after his Re-Raise ( he might just call Your AI and same result) but that what I would have done with KK after someone Re-Raise Me.

This is just because it is much easier to shove AI as to call AI shove( and this might make someone with AKos think twice if they want to risk their whole stack or not )

Anyway with KK you will be making profit in longer term and take this as has happened and make some notes to this layer so you will have some edge in future.

against a tight range QQ+,AK you still have 53% equity so in the long run you make money getting it in as favourite add in JJ TT to his range and you head towards 70% equity

Why no 3-bet pre-flop?

SeaRun said:

Same villain won this one, I was in this one at first but folded AK S when other 2 were betting heavy after the flop. A heavier bet pre by me may have gotten UTG off his suited connectors, but watching the other guy play for quite a while, I wouldn't have gotten him off his small PP and chips would have been wasted.

I think I'll start leaving the table when I see someone like this.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

MP2 ($2.13)
CO ($6.54)
Button ($3.55)
SB ($4.54)
Hero (BB) ($2.53)
UTG ($1.72)
UTG+1 ($0.77)
MP1 ($3.21)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, A

UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 raises to $0.06, 2 folds, CO calls $0.06, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.04, UTG calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.30) 9

, 2

, 6

(5 players)
SB bets $0.24, Hero folds, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.24, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.78) 6

(2 players)
SB bets $0.52, UTG+1 calls $0.47 (All-In)

River: ($1.72) 10

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $1.72 | Rake: $0.06

Results below:

Spoiler

SB had 2

, 2

(full house, twos over sixes).
UTG+1 had 10

, 9

(two pair, tens and nines).
Outcome: SB won $1.66

Click to expand...

Hand 1 is just a standard beat. No analysis needed.
Hand 2 is a must 3bet preflop.

John A said:

Why no 3-bet pre-flop?

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A few reasons actually (and admittedly maybe neither of them good):

On a rough run with good cards and kind of gun-shy at the time (See hand in OP, minutes before the 2nd happened).

Both players had shown previously they didn't easily get knocked off pots they were already in for multiple bbs.

Players of mixed styles, UTG+1 has quite TAG #s with a couple of hundred hands as a sample, with SB being very LAG but with a small sample. I wasn't sure what to do in the situation.

So, a mixture of the above 3 points, and I thought I'd check and see the flop, which obviously missed so I got out.

SeaRun said:

A few reasons actually (and admittedly maybe neither of them good):

On a rough run with good cards and kind of gun-shy at the time (See hand in OP, minutes before the 2nd happened).

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Definitely a bad reason. The second you felt this way, you should have stopped playing.

Both players had shown previously they didn't easily get knocked off pots they were already in for multiple bbs.

Players of mixed styles, UTG+1 has quite TAG #s with a couple of hundred hands as a sample, with SB being very LAG but with a small sample. I wasn't sure what to do in the situation.

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What reasons did you consider that suggested 3betting?

Arjonius said:

Definitely a bad reason. The second you felt this way, you should have stopped playing.

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OK, point taken. Thanks. That being said, I think part of getting a good mind-set for the game is being to play through situations like this with the proper attitude, which obviously needs work.

What reasons did you consider that suggested 3betting?

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Actually, I never did seriously consider a 3 bet, due to the reason #1 above you commented on, and the number of people in the pot. I actually considered folding, but stayed in because I thought for the sake of 2bbs it may be worth seeing the flop with AK Suited. I know this is a contradictory statement, but it's a situation I haven't seen even remotely similar and my mind was spinning with thoughts and what-ifs.

Just make it .30 pre. Yes you may still get a caller but your hand is going to crush his range since bad loose players are more likely to call with Aces that you dominate.

Better leave to save some chunks of your bankroll.
I know its hard though but its the best move.
Goodluck...

This is actually starting to play games with my head.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($2.25)
SB ($2.08)
Hero (BB) ($2.63)
UTG ($3.29)
MP1 ($1.58)
MP2 ($3.40)
CO ($2.91)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A , A
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.07, MP1 calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.15) 5 , K , 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.14, MP1 calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.43) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, MP1 raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.20

River: ($1.23) 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.97 (All-In), Hero calls $0.97

Total pot: $3.17 | Rake: $0.11

Results below:

Don't check/call the river. It's either a shove (against 99.99% of 2nl players) or a ch/fold.
I'd also be raising more preflop (my default OOP with a limper would be to at least .10) and betting .30 on the turn.

SeaRun said:

This is actually starting to play games with my head.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($2.25)
SB ($2.08)
Hero (BB) ($2.63)
UTG ($3.29)
MP1 ($1.58)
MP2 ($3.40)
CO ($2.91)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, A

1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.07, MP1 calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.15) 5

, K

, 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.14, MP1 calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.43) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, MP1 raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.20

River: ($1.23) 10

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.97 (All-In), Hero calls $0.97

Total pot: $3.17 | Rake: $0.11

Results below:

Spoiler

Hero had A

, A

(one pair, Aces).
MP1 had K

, 5

(two pair, Kings and fives).
Outcome: MP1 won $3.06

Click to expand...

I'll just do this hand cos I'm lazy:

Pre flop a good rule of thumb is to raise 3x + 1x for every limper with your value hands, unless we have a read that specific players will call more. So I would have made it .8c, but .7c is ok, as long as we grasp that the aim is to get as much money in the pot as we think villain will call pre flop and not that we are trying to disguise our hand or anything.

On the flop the idea is the same, how much can we bet that we think villain will call with their medium strength hands, in spots like this I like to say to myself something like "how much will villain call if they had exactly Kx?" as this is a fairly likely hand that we will get three streets of value from. If we think villain will call .14c and exactly no more than that's what we bet, I think the bet is fine, probably could have been more if anything.

The three changes nothing of real consequence on the turn, villain has told you that they are willing to stick with their hand from the call on the flop so we can bet strong for value here and expect to be called a large percentage of the time, I would have made it .35-.40c. When villain min raises us here it could mean a lot of things, the most likely situations in my view are; they picked up a flush draw, they have Kx and decided they like it now or they made a monster (33 or Kx etc.), I think there is more hands we beat in villains range than hands we lose to. We really should be putting villain in here in my opinion they are not folding their flush draws or their Kx hands very often and we aren't folding to a pot sized river bet regardless of what card it is so we might as well get it in now while its more likely we have the best of it.

As above we aren't folding to a bet on the river, the only point I have to make on this street is that we really should be leading into villain here and putting them in, imagine if we check and villain checks back and shows us KJo, that is a disaster considering villain would most likely have called the last .97c off. We must be value betting here.

The fact that villain shows us a flopped random two pair shouldn't be tilting us, this should be affirming the fact that this particular villain is going to be making a lot more mistakes than us and sitting at the same table as them will make us money. Re-load and pray he doesn't leave.

TLDR: Flop: raise .8c. Turn: Lead .35c-.40c, Put villain AI after the re-raise. River: Put villain in.

SeaRun said:

OK, point taken. Thanks. That being said, I think part of getting a good mind-set for the game is being to play through situations like this with the proper attitude, which obviously needs work.

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I answered imprecisely before. It's not a completely binary situation. It's more like desensitization where you expose yourself to increasing levels of threats. In this case, you work with increasing levels of upset.

Start by training yourself not to be affected when you're slightly upset. But stop playing immediately if you're more upset than that. After you can handle this level of upset, raise your threshold and repeat.

Actually, I never did seriously consider a 3 bet, due to the reason #1 above you commented on, and the number of people in the pot. I actually considered folding, but stayed in because I thought for the sake of 2bbs it may be worth seeing the flop with AK Suited. I know this is a contradictory statement, but it's a situation I haven't seen even remotely similar and my mind was spinning with thoughts and what-ifs.

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When you're facing an unfamiliar type of situation, you should probably try harder to consider the pros and cons of possible actions that don't necessarily seem natural to you.

You were really unlcuky at these hands , but i think you plaeyd them good and you deserve better, i also think you control pot sizing better and save some money...

betting was good. but some times stuff like this will happen, most likely even if you had AA the guy whoulg'n throw out anything worst than 99+. bad beats are what they are. don't worry =)

First, thanks to everyone for hints, tips and advice.

Pre-flop betting is something I was VERY weak on when I started on this board, and many here (including some that have already posted in this thread) gave the same advice as the quote below. It's something I've been sticking to, or at least trying to, and seems to work best for me when the cards are treating me 1/2 decent.

Wardy88 said:

SNIP<<< Pre flop a good rule of thumb is to raise 3x + 1x for every limper with your value hands, unless we have a read that specific players will call more. >>>>SNIP

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I am trying very hard to keep raises the same in the same situations so as not to give away the strength of my hands. I know I need to work on my range more though, but that's coming as I gain confidence AND learn to fold when I should.

I stayed away from the game last night and that seemed to help get my head back on straight. I've been saying lately I know bad beats happen and for the most part they're water off a duck's back now, but at times, holy crap, they're coming at you from all sides and it gets hard to handle.

Today was a different story. With a new attitude, studying theory some, reading comments you folks have posted, playing as good as I know how and a good bit of luck, I had a good day. As you can see from the graph below, things were different:



Only 2 bad losses in 840 hands. On those 2, I did a much better job of controlling pot size. One (@ ~ 370 mark) I had KK and Villain had AA, some heavy betting pre and flop comes AKRag. No issues losing that one, I just don't know why he didn't bet heavier. He let me lead the whole way and didn't reraise on the River. Other one (@ ~ 670 mark) I flopped 2 top pair, made the full on the turn, and buddy made a straight flush on the river. Again, that's poker and I ain't going to beeotch about that kind of thing happening once in a while.

Some of the smaller drops you see was me getting out of a hand in a bad situation. There were times I was in a pot for 20 bbs with QQ and 2 players, and AK came on the flop. Hard to get away from, but I'm learning.

Stats for this session were (and I'd appreciate some feedback):

VPIP - 18.80
PFR - 10.00
Tot AFQ % - 62.79
WTSD% - 20.30
WSD - 74.07

Again, thanks to everyone for advice and comments. Appreciate it!

Jamie

SeaRun said:

I am trying very hard to keep raises the same in the same situations so as not to give away the strength of my hands.

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This is fine in theory, but think what has to happen in practice for a bet sizing tell to matter:
- opponents have to notice that your sizing isn't constant,
- they have to figure out what your different sizes mean,
- they have to be good enough to adapt their play to benefit from the above,
- situations have to arise where they actually do adapt,

You play NL2. How often do all these things happen? At this level, avoiding sizing tells isn't meaningless, but neither is it critical.

Arjonius is exactly right, the 3x + 1x rule is good as a basic rule to cover a lot of situations. We really need to be understanding the concept of what we are trying accomplish by raising pre-flop, if we have AA for example then the best case scenario is getting all the chips in pre, if this is a somewhat likely situation we should be aiming for this. In most cases this is unlikely.

We should be raising to the largest amount we think we can get called by, if we think that our opponent will call .12c and fold for .13c then we bet .12c, players at these stakes will not be watching your betting patterns very often, and you should be able to tell who is paying attention and who is not.

My pre flop raising sizes are completely unbalanced until I think I see someone exploiting that fact (which is rarely), only then do I think about balancing my raise sizes, and only against that specific player.

SeaRun said:

I am trying very hard to keep raises the same in the same situations so as not to give away the strength of my hands. I know I need to work on my range more though, but that's coming as I gain confidence AND learn to fold when I should.

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Yes but are the two situations the same? You open to $.07 with no limpers, and then to $.07 with limpers. Totally different situation that calls for different sizings. As WVH said, i'm making it a std to $.10 with a limper. $.12 with 2 limpers. And once we get to 3+ limpers I start going even bigger than the 3x+1. Like 5 limpers to me, i'm not making it like $.24 or so.

My default is always 3x + 1 per limper + 1 if I'll be OOP BUT if I know the limper is going to limp call bigger bets I'll bet bigger, sometimes as high as 10x.

Don't we want to raise enough for them to call but not good enough odds to setmine against us profitable?

Aces2w1n said:

Don't we want to raise enough for them to call but not good enough odds to setmine against us profitable?

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This question ignores the possibility of being called or even raised by non-pair hands. So in theory, yes, we'd prefer not to make it profitable for an opponent to set mine, but in practice, there's more to consider unless we can be pretty confident the opponent's range is (almost) all pocket pairs.