$2 NLHE Full Ring: turned 2 pair multi-way

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 8 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $0.73 (37 bb)
UTG+1: $3.07 (154 bb)
MP: $3.06 (153 bb)
MP+1 (Hero): $1.33 (67 bb)
CO: $3.63 (182 bb)
BU: $1.81 (91 bb)
SB: $1.39 (70 bb)
BB: $2.12 (106 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP+1 with T♣ A♠
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 raises to $0.06, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $0.16, 4 players fold, UTG calls $0.14, UTG+1 calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.51) Q♦ T♦ 7♠ (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.51) A♥ (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.37, Hero raises to $0.74, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $2.91 (all-in), Hero calls $0.43 (all-in)

table was pretty tight besides the two players in the hand, the UTG limper was open limping often and the guy behind him kept isolating I didn't give him only premium hands here pre-flop. On the flop I checked through since I only hold middle pair. On the turn should I have flat called? I thought about it to keep the other player in but the board was also pretty drawy, after I raised UTG's turn bet I realized when he shoved I was committed, are we trying to stack off on this turn or should I have just called ? when he bet nearly pot on the turn I gave him range of 2-pair, sets, and possible KJs, at 2NL though some players play top pair like it is the nuts, ,maybe flat calling was best what do you think here? also thought he could be on combo draw with a pair or something.

because both players checked on the flop to me as I was the pre-flop aggro when I checked through I didn't really learn anything about their ranges on the flop so I feel like part of the problem was if I just called the turn I don't know if villain is on some sort of draw or if he has a made hand because I checked the flop he may thought I looked weak so he could barrel big with his semi-bluffs since UTG checked turn and he was in the middle all he had to do was push me out of the pot with a semi-bluff. If I just call turn and a diamond comes I'm not sure I would know what to do when he bets again, because I wouldn't know if he was representing the flush, KJ for a straight etc.

Preflop
This has been said many times in other hand reviews, but why are you not starting with a full 100BB stack? Odd stack sizes change the whole complexity of a hand, and you get the best learning by always playing with a full stack. Maybe there can be some merit to cap-stacking (40BB), if you are taking shots at a higher limit, but obviously this does not apply to 2NL.

With your explanation, that UTG+1 is isolating to wide against the limper, I can be on board with playing ATo. But typically its a fold against an UTG+1 open. If you are going to 3-bet, you need to go larger like 10-11BB. You could also just flat, if the players behind are passive. It keep the limper in the pot, and he is a big part of your reason to get involved.

Flop
Checking behind middle pair is completely fine. If you C-bet, you mostly get action from better hands and strong draws.

Turn
With your stack size just get it in. By making this cute little massage raise you are literally begging him to stick around and try to draw out on you, and then fold his busted K9 of diamonds or whatever on the river, so that he saves the last 40c. Make him know, you mean business, and make him pay to stick around. Obviously did not matter, since he got it in for you, but along with your preflop 3-bet this indicate, that sizing is an area for improvement.

Hope this analysis helped

You should call push on turn. He could have weaker hands(Ax and draws). Only AQ beat you.

I’m losing to AQ, sets and KJ

This is a fold pre for me. Too many better Aces that are typically played, and you can wait for better spots.

Meur5ault said:

This is a fold pre for me. Too many better Aces that are typically played, and you can wait for better spots.

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Yeah it could be folded, I’m not really asking about how to play it pre-flop that’s the easy part, the difficult part is putting villain on a range on the turn and deciding what to do about it. I was taking an exploitative play by 3-betting someone who was constantly attacking a limper with a wider than normal range. Where’s Carlos ? I would like to hear his thoughts.

Casey55 said:

Yeah it could be folded, I’m not really asking about how to play it pre-flop that’s the easy part

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Not that easy apparently since you made a sizing mistake. And this mattered to the rest of the hand, because with better sizing you might have gotten one of them or both of them to fold.

Casey55 said:

the difficult part is putting villain on a range on the turn and deciding what to do about it.

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Just bet or raise for value, whenever you have a strong hand. The main mistake, people make in the micros, is slowplaying to much. Very few if any people slowplay to little. So if you just take slowplaying completely out of your game, it will not be perfect, but almost certainly better than, what you do now, if this was a difficult decision for you. Ok if you flop quads then slowplay. But that is just about it.

Its a bit like limping. There is some merit to having a limping strategy from SB. But its very complicated, and never limping, if you are first to enter the pot, will be good enough and way better than, what the average player with a limping "strategy" does. As for his range its very wide, and you are way ahead of it. Which is all, you need to know.

I don’t understand what you mean by slow play here, also don’t know if we can bet for value on turn, we are losing to many combos of hands on the turn , AT almost feels like a bluff-catcher now, villain has been iso raising the limper often he can have all 16 combos of KJ here after flop gets checked through. I initially thought on the turn villain could have just been leading into me with any single paired Ace aswell as some sort of combo draw that is why I chose to raise the turn and then realized I committed myself. In hindsight I think calling turn and either folding river or bluff-catching on river was best

You can absolutely raise for value on the turn. Combos, you are behind to, are: KJ (16), AA (1), QQ (3), TT (1), 77 (3), AQ (6) = 30. Combos, you are ahead of, are: A7s (2), QTs (2), AK (8), AJ (8), A9 (8), KQ (12), QJs (3), JTs (2), J9s (4), 98s (4) = 53 or almost twice as many. Of course we do not know, what his range exactly is, but if he can have KJo, then he can have many other hands as well.

Casey55 said:

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 8 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $0.73 (37 bb)
UTG+1: $3.07 (154 bb)
MP: $3.06 (153 bb)
MP+1 (Hero): $1.33 (67 bb)
CO: $3.63 (182 bb)
BU: $1.81 (91 bb)
SB: $1.39 (70 bb)
BB: $2.12 (106 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP+1 with T♣ A♠
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 raises to $0.06, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $0.16, 4 players fold, UTG calls $0.14, UTG+1 calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.51) Q♦ T♦ 7♠ (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.51) A♥ (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.37, Hero raises to $0.74, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $2.91 (all-in), Hero calls $0.43 (all-in)

table was pretty tight besides the two players in the hand, the UTG limper was open limping often and the guy behind him kept isolating I didn't give him only premium hands here pre-flop. On the flop I checked through since I only hold middle pair. On the turn should I have flat called? I thought about it to keep the other player in but the board was also pretty drawy, after I raised UTG's turn bet I realized when he shoved I was committed, are we trying to stack off on this turn or should I have just called ? when he bet nearly pot on the turn I gave him range of 2-pair, sets, and possible KJs, at 2NL though some players play top pair like it is the nuts, ,maybe flat calling was best what do you think here? also thought he could be on combo draw with a pair or something.

because both players checked on the flop to me as I was the pre-flop aggro when I checked through I didn't really learn anything about their ranges on the flop so I feel like part of the problem was if I just called the turn I don't know if villain is on some sort of draw or if he has a made hand because I checked the flop he may thought I looked weak so he could barrel big with his semi-bluffs since UTG checked turn and he was in the middle all he had to do was push me out of the pot with a semi-bluff. If I just call turn and a diamond comes I'm not sure I would know what to do when he bets again, because I wouldn't know if he was representing the flush, KJ for a straight etc.

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Hi Casey55, thank you for sharing with us.
I would like to say that I am not a Full-Ring player, per se. Actually, I hate Full-Ring tables because the players are almost always so nitty and we can barely find a real good spot where we can be playing from UTG, UTG+1 and MP, MP+1:
I really don't love opening or playing a bunch of weak aces from these position, for example "A7s", or from UTG even AJs I think it is not strong enough to be raising preflop.
IMO, there are far better players playing Full-Ring than 6-MAX.
IMO, the greatest ammount of fishes and recreational players are not in the Full-Ring tables, full or semi-professionals, even the fishes are solid and strong, au contraire, the 6-MAX tables are full of risking lives and non-sense players.
I guess I will stop making comments about Full-Ring tables, because I really don't understand properly the playability and overall strategy.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Casey55 said:

Yeah it could be folded, I’m not really asking about how to play it pre-flop that’s the easy part, the difficult part is putting villain on a range on the turn and deciding what to do about it. I was taking an exploitative play by 3-betting someone who was constantly attacking a limper with a wider than normal range. Where’s Carlos ? I would like to hear his thoughts.

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I appreciate your plan. But in general, I don't want to get in the spot that emerged as the hand was played. Top pair top kicker type hands don't do well in big pots. Get to showdown as cheap as possible.

I will be missing some value, but I'll take that at the basement level.

Aballinamion said:

IMO, the greatest ammount of fishes and recreational players are not in the Full-Ring tables, full or semi-professionals, even the fishes are solid and strong, au contraire, the 6-MAX tables are full of risking lives and non-sense players

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Its funny, because I actually feel, full ring tables tend to be softer. I think, it might really boil down to, which one suit your personal playing style best. If you play on small poker sites, your goal should be to master both, because it gives the best chance for table selection

fundiver199 said:

Its funny, because I actually feel, full ring tables tend to be softer. I think, it might really boil down to, which one suit your personal playing style best. If you play on small poker sites, your goal should be to master both, because it gives the best chance for table selection

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Could it be that you play more flops 6 max? You get better at playing those boards maybe?

fundiver199 said:

You can absolutely raise for value on the turn. Combos, you are behind to, are: KJ (16), AA (1), QQ (3), TT (1), 77 (3), AQ (6) = 30. Combos, you are ahead of, are: A7s (2), QTs (2), AK (8), AJ (8), A9 (8), KQ (12), QJs (3), JTs (2), J9s (4), 98s (4) = 53 or almost twice as many. Of course we do not know, what his range exactly is, but if he can have KJo, then he can have many other hands as well.

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Out of the range you listed;

I am the pre-flop aggressor so the A should be better for my range,KQ shouldn't really be leading the turn even with a gut-shot.Same with QJ. JT shouldnt be leading.

I agree with the hands you listed of, KJ,AA,QQ,TT,77,AQ would lead,

I agree the hands that would lead that I am ahead of A7,QT,AK,AJ, .

I think villain leading with KQ,QJ,JT,A9 are debatable since the Ace comes on the turn, I am pre-flop aggressor and board is very textured.

Out of his turn leading range what parts of his range are calling our raise? KJ,AA,QQ,TT,77,AQ,QT,A7 and maybe AK and AJ? at 2NL I thought weaker aces might call but I might not use that for any decision reasoning in the future because it almost feels like I am leveling myself into making decisions.

out of this range we didn't include any combo draws that he might have, but maybe there isn't too many since the Q and T of diamonds are on the board that would make good hands reducing the number of suited diamond hands


Basically , his whole turn leading range isn’t his whole re-raise calling range,

Casey55 said:

I think villain leading with KQ,QJ,JT,A9 are debatable since the Ace comes on the turn, I am pre-flop aggressor and board is very textured.

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It is debatable for sure. He probably should not be leading turn with those hands. But flop checked through, so he will be leading with a lot of bluffs, and I basically included those hands to represent bluffs. But maybe he lead with 44 or K9 offsuit or other completely random stuff, which it makes no sense to try and figure out.

At the end of the day you have the second best possible two pair on a board, where one straight is possible, and the stack to pot ratio is only a little over two. This is just not a spot, where I am going to fold like ever.

And when the board is as dynamic as this, I dont particularly want to see a river card either. This is why, I just ship it in on the turn and dont even really think about it to be honest. You will win this often enough for a turn jam to be +EV in the long run, and if you lose this time, you just reload and play on.

So once again apart from sizing issues and a bit of a loose 3-bet preflop, you played this hand totally fine. If you lost it, which I assume is probably the case, that is not in itself an indication, you did anything wrong.

Fair enough, thank you for the analysis