$2 NLHE Full Ring: Tricky river call or incorrect flop play?

H

HiSociety

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 24/8/2

888 Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

MP+2: 100 BB
CO: 156.5 BB
BTN: 50 BB
Hero (SB): 122 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 169 BB
UTG+1: 120 BB
MP: 110 BB
MP+1: 101.5 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Jd Jc
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3.5 BB, BB calls 2.5 BB

Flop : (7 BB, 2 players) 5c Ac 4d
Hero checks, BB bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB

Turn : (21 BB, 2 players) 7c
Hero checks, BB checks

River : (21 BB, 2 players) 2h
Hero checks, BB bets 10.5 BB, Hero calls 10.5 BB

BB shows As Js (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 35%, Flop 90%, Turn 77%)

Hero mucks Jd Jc (One Pair, Jacks)
(Pre 65%, Flop 10%, Turn 23%)

BB wins 39.5 BB

On the flop I'm often delayed cbetting these kind of hands on these kind of boards cos hand can't stand heavy action and don't think it's strong enough to get 3 streets from this player. Also checking one street adds some deception, we play less 'face up'. Plan is to c/c for pot control then bet safe/improving turn cards then perhaps find a value bet on river if board/action allows. When he bombs pot on the flop I think it's possibly too tight to fold straight away because many players at NL2 do this as a bluff and our hand could still be good. J and BDFD outs too. When the player checks back turn I think it makes it less likely he has a very strong hand and so checking the river allows him to bet with a worse hand.
Don't want to be results orientated but decided to leave result in because I think it suggests something about the type of hands he'd play this way and perhaps validates the flop pot control.

*Note* whilst I'm not terribly worried about him having flush on the river. I guess the wheel straight is possible, what 3s would he play this way? Maybe 33 maybe A3?

Any thoughts welcome. Thank you
 
John A

John A

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Thoughts.... ya, I wouldn't approach poker like this. You should play based on the flop texture and your opponent. You have second pair on a A high flop. If you check planning to call, what's your plan... are you just checking and then folding the turn?

Simple rule for you: If your opponent is aggressive then c/c and you can sometimes lead turn in these spots. Sometimes checking turn again.

If they are passive, just bet. They will tell you what their hand is and they aren't going to bluff often enough, so you're just giving them extra chances to realize their equity.

As played, I'd lean toward a river fold. It's close though, but your opponent is passive, the board hasn't run out great, and if they were going to bluff twice in this hand, bluffing the turn would have been a good spot. Now they are betting 1/2 pot which is likely an ok value hand.

Calling getting 3:1 here isn't horrible, but I'd suggest re-orienting your thinking in these spots a bit.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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Personally being OOP check/calling is just burning money most times.

If we don't bet here on the flop, what are we betting with??? Because A is in our range a lot here and it should be a strong Ax depending on our image.

So what does his bet mean on the flop?
A check is strange, it means he isn't in love with his hand or he wants the freecard here most times which we gave him.

Given villains actions i'd most likely lead river.




But i'd never check this flop.
 
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mr_kommpa

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I think checking flop is good, you have a lot of Ax hands that can value bet and also a lot od semi bluffs like clubs or gut shot / OESD. So check / calling here protects your checking range, I would also some of the time check AA or A 2-pair so that you also have some value when checking.

I understand the argument of Cbetting 100% it not super likely that he will have an A and without an A or draw he will probably fold, so C betting 1/2 pot on all semi dry flops seems like a good play as well.

Against a passive opponent that this seems to be I would X/C with the intention to fold facing pressure. I think you can let it go on the river, but as John said, you are getting great odds so its not a big leak.
 
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Tricky123bet

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Cbetting flop 50% seems good.
As played though, you could lead the river for 20-30%. It's a small bet that gets you to showdown cheaper. You can get called by worse (88-TT, 67s, 56s) and only pay 25% pot to get to showdown, instead of check-calling a 50-100% river bet. He probably only raises with two pairs and better, and when he does, you know you are beat.
 
N

ninoverm

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Personally being OOP check/calling is just burning money most times.

If we don't bet here on the flop, what are we betting with??? Because A is in our range a lot here and it should be a strong Ax depending on our image.

So what does his bet mean on the flop?
A check is strange, it means he isn't in love with his hand or he wants the freecard here most times which we gave him.

Given villains actions i'd most likely lead river.




But i'd never check this flop.

Tell me: if you are betting this flop, are you valuebetting or bluffing? I like the check on the flop and I think it's pretty trivial actually. 77 or 88 you might wanna bet for protection, JJ-KK you should really be checking. Don't bet for the sake of betting. General rule: if you've got the middle of your range, check.

Benefits of check-calling:
- You protect your giving up range (if you're checking here, you don't want to always fold once villain bets, would be hugely exploitable)
- Your opponent might bluff with air instead of just folding to your bet
- You can get value on later streets easier being more sure of your opponent holding a worse hand (he doesn't put you on Ax)
- You can get into bluff catching mode which is just much better with the middle of your range (if you're gonna bet flop and he calls, what the hell do you do on the turn? Check-fold?)

You can balance your check-calling range with the absolute top of your range, AA in this instance. When you have AA it's also really hard for your opponent to have a hand that would call multiple streets, so you probably make more value by letting him bluff.

As played though, you could lead the river for 20-30%. It's a small bet that gets you to showdown cheaper. You can get called by worse (88-TT, 67s, 56s) and only pay 25% pot to get to showdown, instead of check-calling a 50-100% river bet. He probably only raises with two pairs and better, and when he does, you know you are beat.

Agree on this river analysis.
 
B

braveslice

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Imo, Flop x/c is ok in 2NL villain usually autobets large part of his range. Given villain's stats river should be fold. There is str, flush and A on the board making him very nervous. And really in 2NL only plan needed is to bet good hands and fold bad ones, but for some reason only so few are really following that plan.
 
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